Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[Hopkins123]

If the McCowan alignment is chosen, hope for intermediate stops at Brimley/Eglinton and McCowan/Lawrence

And if Midland or Brimley, intermediate stops at Lawrence and Ellesmere.

I'm actually liking Midland for the ROW more and more since it allows us to recycle most the SRT path alignment and the existing terminal at Scarborough Town Centre, plus opens the possibility of extending the line northeast into Malvern.

 

[ttk77]

Josh Matlow, is that you?

At this point, those plans should not be cancelled in favour other alternatives. The Bloor-Danforth extension and the Gardiner Hybrid should just go ahead without disruption because switching to alternatives just stalls progress and makes more of a mess of Toronto’s growing infrastructure and transit problems.

As Mayor John Tory keeps saying… No more talk. It’s time to build.

I would normally agree with this, but the problem here is the magnitude of waste. We're talking about billions of wasted dollars. How much is too much? With 30 billion in unfunded commitments on the city's books this kind of waste could hamstring our efforts to build more urgently needed transit expansion.

 

[gweed123]

The report will include:

• The recommended alignment for the express SSE to Scarborough Centre;
• The outcome of the third party review of cost estimates and risk assessment requested by City Council in July 2016;
• Analysis of project delivery models, including a recommendation on how to proceed;
• Outlines the governance structure; and
• Updates the funding and financing strategy.

Am I the only one who found the word "express" in this context kind of humorous? It's "express" as in "we've removed all the other stops", not express as in "this train skips stops". Keep polishing...

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Am I the only one who found the word "express" in this context kind of humorous? It's "express" as in "we've removed all the other stops", not express as in "this train skips stops". Keep polishing...

At this point, an "express" subway is the best subway Scarborough is every getting. The original 3-stop proposal would cost well in excess of $7 Billion. It aint happening

 

[innsertnamehere]

lol where the heck did you get $7 billion? Adding 2 stops and an extra kilometre doubles costs?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

lol where the heck did you get $7 billion? Adding 2 stops and an extra kilometre doubles costs?

I made it up. But given the incredible cost escalations of all infrastructure around the city, nothing would surprise me at this point. The one stop is already costing at least $3.4 Billion, with staff anticipating up to another $1 Billion (up to $4.4 Billion in total) in cost increases for that project once detailed design is compete.

Plus its another 1.7 km to Sheppard, with staff warning it'll be rather pricy to get the subway under the 401.

 

[Hopkins123]

lol where the heck did you get $7 billion? Adding 2 stops and an extra kilometre doubles costs?

Where indeed. But come on, let's discuss the merits of a Midland alignment since McCowan is proving to be more costly than it's worth.

Benefits of Midland:

- Sustains the SRT in spirit with stations at Lawrence, Ellesmere/Midland consolidated, possibility of keeping McCowan Stn active as part of a growing City Centre area
- The Town Centre station in it's existing spot so no need to build a brand new terminal
- Opens the window to an extension to Progress Campus and Malvern in the future

Land use surrounding Midland probably means that it could be partially road closed for about an 18 month period (only between Eglinton and Lawrence is residential on both sides of the street). The land use particularly north of Lawrence opens the possibility of cut-and-cover through the industrial lands (side-of-roadway alignment). It's workable.

 

[amnesiajune]

Sustains the SRT in spirit with stations at Lawrence, Ellesmere/Midland consolidated

Why is that a benefit? There's no reason to keep those stations. They're in the middle of industrial parks and extremely underused. They do hardly anything except slow down people's trips from Scarborough Centre to Kennedy.

Opens the window to an extension to Progress Campus and Malvern in the future

Again, why is that a benefit? It would be a lot better to build LRT/BRT lines around a Scarborough Centre hub. The only subway extension that might make sense eventually is to connect the Sheppard East LRT to the subway, but that's dependant on a lot of things - particularly whether or not a subway line gets built along Don Mills to provide that direct connection from Sheppard East to downtown.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

- Sustains the SRT in spirit with stations at Lawrence, Ellesmere/Midland consolidated, possibility of keeping McCowan Stn active as part of a growing City Centre area

Why the heck would we care about sustaining the SRT "in spirit"? If it's not going on the surface in the SRT corridor, just put it on the cheapest possible alignment, which seems to be McCowan (unless there's newer information saying otherwise).

Also, Midland will require a curve, which means slower speeds, higher travel times and greater maintenance costs.

 

[W. K. Lis]

At this point, an "express" subway is the best subway Scarborough is every getting. The original 3-stop proposal would cost well in excess of $7 Billion. It aint happening

"Express" is never "express" at the terminal stations. Seems to be a permanent "go slow" situation where trains slow down half way to the terminal station, then stop and go until a platform is available for the train to enter. It is however "express" on leaving the terminal station.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

"Express" is never "express" at the terminal stations. Seems to be a permanent "go slow" situation where trains slow down half way to the terminal station, then stop and go until a platform is available for the train to enter. It is however "express" on leaving the terminal station.

Scarborough Centre station shouldn't have those issues since only 50% of Line 2 stations will be terminating there. Also the track designs can be modified to mitigate any terminal congestion.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Scarborough Centre station shouldn't have those issues since only 50% of Line 2 stations will be terminating there

Speaking of headways, that reminds me that Scarborough Centre station is planned to be one of the deepest (if not the deepest) station in the system. Has there been any analysis of how long it'll take for customers to get from the surface to the platform level? I believe Keesmaat mentioned that City Planning was analyzing time walking through stations, but that was with regards to the Relief Line and not the Scarborough Subway.

 

[Rainforest]

I hope they re-examine the Midland and Brimley alignments. The Midland option may have a challenging geometry, but might allow the reuse of a portion of the existing SRT alignment.

The Brimley option might be easiest / cheapest to built. The terminus would replace the parking lot located on the side of Brimley just north of Progress. The same parking lot can be used as the TBM launch site.

The main advantage of the McCowan alignment was the station at Lawrence serving the hospital. But since the TTC decided that such station would have to be deep and too expensive to build, the McCowan alignment is no longer the best option. Hopefully, a slightly shorter Brimley or Midland route will save some funds and those can be used to get a Lawrence East station build. That station would no longer be at the hospital doorsteps, but it would at least connect to Lawrence East bus.

As of the subway link from STC to Sheppard, sadly it seems to be out of the picture. Perhaps it will happen in the distant future, but not during this round of transit expansion.

 

[Rainforest]

Coming south, I see Sherbourne, Parliament, Bayview and Broadview as options. Then coming East, along King, Front/Wellington, Front, Mill/Esplanade.

Logistically, I can see tunneling from Bloor all the way, but it seems hard to come south elevated and then switch to underground for the east-west portion.

• Maybe elevated through downtown is not that bad after all. If its good enough for Scarborough, its good enough for the downtown.
• Alternatively, there could be no intermediate stations and just one near Wellington/Bay. Again, if 5+km subway with no intermediate stops is good enough for Scarborough, its good enough for the downtown.

Elevated through downtown is out of question. Even in Scarborough, elevated is only good enough if it runs in the existing SRT corridor.

A tunnel with a single terminus in downtown, and no intermediate stations between that terminus and Danforth ... perhaps this is not totally unreasonable. The LRT might not even need to reach as far south as Wellington. The terminus could be placed somewhere at Yonge and Dundas, or at Victoria and Shuter.

But then again, such a plan is too bold; neither Mayor Tory nor anyone else with any political weight will give their support to such a dramatic change in direction.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Am I the only one who found the word "express" in this context kind of humorous? It's "express" as in "we've removed all the other stops", not express as in "this train skips stops". Keep polishing...

Express to Kennedy, followed up all the stop to Bloor-Yonge. Has a certain nice ring to it, don't you think?

AoD