Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[denfromoakvillemilton]

No, that would be a colossal waste of money.

You're right.


But a colassal waste of money and peace of mind... or saving money and misery??

 

[sixrings]

I love that solution. And screw UP! Eglinton West should have been built first but Toronto Planning!!

it would be all grade separated for relatively cheap... I understand why sheppard, finch are surface but eglinton could easily have been grade separated for not that much extra.

 

[LNahid2000]

You're right.


But a colassal waste of money and peace of mind... or saving money and misery??

Who exactly is making a stink? Half of Scarborough residents want the LRT. I don't think it's as simple as spending $3 billion and everyone in Scarborough will be happy.

 

[SJD_Toronto]

Just... build... the subway. Get it done and move on.

Jeez. Back and forth. Back and forth. Back and forth.

 

[44 North]

This was not an actual solution since the RT corridor could not have a subway run on its turns which is why we are in this subway inflating mess that we are in now.

My solution then and is now is this... I get that I am a lone wolf on it though and it may have some problems which I am sure could be over come. I also am willing to say goodbye to UP express which I am sure some will hate.

Have you ever thought about using the CP corridor to get the Crosstown up to the Ellesmere elevated section (in place of using the disjointed Eglinton East->Stouffville corridor alignment)? A couple benefits: 1) this would free-up the Stouffville corridor for double/triple track, 2) it would IMO provide a more balanced distribution of subway lines across the east half of the city (with the line filling the gap on a 'diagonal' between the current Line 2 and future DRL/Don Mills subway). And on a more basic level it would make a good mirror image for your western portion.

I made this map almost two years ago, but I think about it from time to time as having a lot of merit. Basically we'd sacrifice two tram-style LRT lines (Crosstown b/n Laird-Kennedy, and the SELRT) but in the process create a 100% subway/metro line to SCC.

 

[sixrings]

Have you ever thought about using the CP corridor to get the Crosstown up to the Ellesmere elevated section (in place of using the disjointed Eglinton East->Stouffville corridor alignment)? A couple benefits: 1) this would free-up the Stouffville corridor for double/triple track, 2) it would IMO provide a more balanced distribution of subway lines across the east half of the city (with the line filling the gap on a 'diagonal' between the current Line 2 and future DRL/Don Mills subway). And on a more basic level it would make a good mirror image for your western portion.

I made this map almost two years ago, but I think about it from time to time as having a lot of merit. Basically we'd sacrifice two tram-style LRT lines (Crosstown b/n Laird-Kennedy, and the SELRT) but in the process create a 100% subway/metro line to SCC.

View attachment 79927

I wouldn't have a problem with this map if the DRL went up to eglinton in the first phase but if not there would still need to be some sort of connection from kennedy to STC (the exact part which is inflating like a NYC thanksgiving day balloon)

 

[kEiThZ]

Tory said what I've said before. And he's spot on. People get easily offended and see it through the racial lens. But here's the thing, if Scarborough was not filled with immigrant families who work long jobs with long commutes and have poor language skills, the lobbying would be far different. And there might be more than a few politicians who would be finding excuses for how and why the city needs to spend $3 billion on building a subway there. Indeed, when politicians built a subway to Vaughan, a lot of people looked sideways on the corrupt dealings of a provincial minister owning land there and simply said, “Great this gets us the subway to York. Here’s our $500 million cheque.”


Now, I’ve come around to seeing some benefit to LRT over subway (supported the latter mostly because of the urban growth centre and transit hub plans there). But let’s recall what the LRT plan was before the subway came back to the fore. The SLRT was cut short at Sheppard and Progress. This means most of Malvern was bussing and transferring. The SELRT was cut short at Morningside. And there was no firm commitment for the SMLRT. Deferred to some hypothetical second tranche of projects which might never come to pass. This is why people clamour for the subway. It seems like tangible progress to them. Had the alternative to the subway been a full SMLRT, SLRT to Malvern and a full SELRT to the zoo, a good chunk of Scarborough politicians might have reluctantly gotten onboard (even if the public was skeptical). Unfortunately, the only time politicians seem interested in spending on transit in Scarborough with firm funding commitments, seems to be, when there’s a subway involved.

 

[rbt]

But a colassal waste of money and peace of mind... or saving money and misery??

If it's going to be a huge waste of money, city council needs to win a substantial transit fund out of the residents.

It won't do any good to splurge on this item with no ability to actually fund the pieces the city does need. The province is starting to demand Toronto kick in funding too if it's going to keep asking for it and the feds don't solo-pay for anything.

Scarborough subway can be built if we can lock-in funding for WWLRT, Waterfront East, Eglinton West, $2B for SOGR (SSE pre-reqs like signalling, new rolling stock, etc.), and DRL short option (I don't think the province will do that one alone; Metrolinx is coming up short on their $15B RER with things like the $5B CN rerouting). That means an infrastructure tax hike of some kind (likely around 20% over todays rates for 30 years) and Scarborough councillors voting in favour of it.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

it would be all grade separated for relatively cheap... I understand why sheppard, finch are surface but eglinton could easily have been grade separated for not that much extra.

I think they just wanted a show piece for the Pan Am games... just ridiculous. And that brings in Malvern which is important. If we had no leslie stop(there shouldn't be one, then this is moot.

Who exactly is making a stink? Half of Scarborough residents want the LRT. I don't think it's as simple as spending $3 billion and everyone in Scarborough will be happy.

If it's going to be a huge waste of money, city council needs to win a substantial transit fund out of the residents.

It won't do any good to splurge on this item with no ability to actually fund the pieces the city does need. The province is starting to demand Toronto kick in funding too if it's going to keep asking for it and the feds don't solo-pay for anything.

But here's the thing: enough are angry. And the people who want LRT never seem to be around when these uproars happen. Build the sheppard and scarborough subways, and then build the Eglinton East LRT. Just eat it and move on. We have a DRL to build and GO to expand.

 

[sixrings]

I lived in scarborough for many years and am white. My father had a fancy accounting job downtown which was easily over 100,000 and my mother was a teacher. My best friends parents both worked for Royal Bank and my other friends parents were nurses and or other types of professionals. I have no clue why we want to paint all of scarborough with a certain brush but then think of etobicoke as white privilege, ignoring rexdale, and north York (yonge/sheppard) as Asian and ignore the Jane and Finch part. Downtown apparently is all elite as well if you close your eyes to region park and some housing around Chinatown. But sure lets make sweeping generalizations because its simpler and then we don't need to think as much.

 

[LNahid2000]

But here's the thing: enough are angry. And the people who want LRT never seem to be around when these uproars happen. Build the sheppard and scarborough subways, and then build the Eglinton East LRT. Just eat it and move on. We have a DRL to build and GO to expand.

I don't think we should base our transit planning on who is the angriest...

 

[rbt]

We have a DRL to build and GO to expand.

That's my point; with current tax levels and the current SSE agreement the province will have a DRL to build if they choose to as Toronto won't be able to participate in that or anything else for 2 decades. SSE would be the last big TTC project during my working career and I'm in my 30's.

Seriously, the 5% budget reduction for all departments is a direct result of the Gardiner decision. TTC buying buses with funds-from-current (operating budget via the last fare hike) is another sign we've already hit the cap. Finding ~$1B+ for the cities share of SSE is going to require some magic. The feds, thus far, are providing generic funding only which should go into maintenance rather than expansion (we have reliability issues on both Yonge and Bloor; SSE is useless if the rest of Bloor is taken offline).

The whims of the province, and Metrolinx, change every 4 years. Without a Wynne re-election, I expect current GO plans to be truncated and I can guarantee GO will sacrifice projects for other orgs (TTC, Hamilton, Mississauga) before they reduce scope on their own stuff.

 

[kEiThZ]

Haha word for word sounds like something that could have been straight from the pen of Keithz. Maybe he's a political operative? All the Tory boosterism of ScamTrack and other Tory pet projects would make sense.

Call it like I see it. And my opinions are based on watching my immigrant relatives take 1.5 - 2 hr commutes to the core. I'd gladly support LRT if they were actually willing to build a full LRT plan. But somehow the choice is between a $3 billion one stop subway or an LRT line that barely touches Malvern and a Sheppard LRT that doesn't go past Morningside. I'd fully back LRT if somebody said that the new plan for $3 billion worth of LRT in Scarborough.

I've been saying for over 4 years that those who want to bring back the LRT with transfer are responsible for much of the mess we are in. The pro rapid transit people made several attempts to compromise (connected SRT-Eg., subway along a number of routes), but the LRT promoters refused to budge 1 inch.

This. And the prime example is the Sheppard subway. I've not even seen any discussion outside the forum on converting that to LRT. If they ever build the SELRT, they'll have another sore point for decades. Why can't they simply bite the bullet and push for conversion? That would make the LRT a ton more palatable in that corridor.

But Scarborough will never stop making a stink until we give them a subway. We should just cave, build both subways and move on.

Absolutely does not have to be this way. There are plenty of ways to make LRT more palatable. But that does not even seem to be something to consider. And since nobody seems to want to commit to a full LRT plan and push it through, the subway has become a symbol of progress and improvement.

 

[SJD_Toronto]

But here's the thing: enough are angry. And the people who want LRT never seem to be around when these uproars happen. Build the sheppard and scarborough subways, and then build the Eglinton East LRT. Just eat it and move on. We have a DRL to build and GO to expand.

Agreed. This back and forth between LRT and subway for Scarborough is so tiresome and unproductive that it wouldn't shock me if nothing gets built. We have all 3 levels of government on board to get this bloody subway extension (It's not a stub way of a new line like how some people make it out to be. It's the Bloor-Danforth extension.) to the STC finished. If anyone thinks the LRT plan is coming back, you are foolish to think so. If Toronto City Council votes in favour of going back to the LRT plan, do you really think it will be built? No. The Ontario Grits are going to have the subway built one way or another.

To councillors like Josh Matlow and Gord Perks, let it go. Please let it go. The LRT plan was a good plan, yes, but going back and forth is getting nowhere. I say just set it some new taxes for transit building and get on with building new projects, such as the Relief Line and Eglinton Crosstown East. And yes, use new money raised from new taxes to finish the Bloor-Danforth subway extension.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

If Rob Ford were still mayor and behind this subway plan, there would have been crowds in front of City Hall protesting. With other mayors, you just voice your anger on social media. Good Job!