Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[coffey1]

The debacle continues. The transit rich wanna be dictatorship in this City has absolutely no respect for Scarborough as a whole. I assume the left media & councillors feel Tory has weakened the SSE enough with ONE stop that they can now attempt once again to hi-jack transit planning in areas outside of there transit blessed riding's.

Do we really need to go full circle again? This crap has got to put to an end. Enjoy your subway Vaughan...

Today' articles:
If Scarborough subway ridership cant be improved, cancel it
Councillor Josh Matlow wants Scarborough subway debate back on at City Hall - Toronto - CBC News

How about giving equal headlines to the blowhards on both sides of the debate and control the message in an unbiased manner? ...Savages

 

[Silence&Motion]

Toronto Star: Popular woodlot threatened by Scarborough subway plans

From the article:

The TTC has proposed five potential sites at the intersection, two of which would damage the forest. But the other three would require relocating 13 businesses and 10 single-family dwellings. That means that unless an alternative is found, political leaders could be forced to choose between destroying the parkland and displacing people.

Neither option is acceptable to Councillor Glenn De Baeremaeker (Ward 38, Scarborough Centre). He argues the woodlot could be spared without having to expropriate any homes, if the mobilization site were moved north to the Scarborough Town Centre parking lot. TTC staff didn’t list that as an option, however, and if it’s not possible De Baeremaeker would prefer to locate the tunnel site at the south side of Ellesmere, where it would only displace commercial properties.

“The ugliest options are kicking people out of their homes and cutting down this spectacular woodlot. So I think those options are going to get dropped pretty fast,” said De Baeremaeker, who campaigned to save the parkland more than 20 years ago and is a vocal proponent of the subway.

“The woodlot will not be cut down,” he added. “It’s really an insult to all of us that the staff put it out there as an option.”​

I know there are worse city councillors out there, but my god, De Baeremaeker has been insufferable throughout this whole subway debate. He's the one who insisted on building a multi-billion dollar into the middle of suburban sprawl, and now he's stipulating that you can't knock down any suburban bungalows or trees to build it??

I'd say this is the death knell for the subway right here. This has always been an anti-urban project to begin with. The demand for underground transit came not from a desire to urbanize Scarborough, but because the project's supporters wanted to make sure any transit would stay buried and completely out of the way of their cars.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Don't knock down any single-story bungalows. Don't knock down any trees. Don't install sidewalks.

Three reasons not to build a subway in Scarborough. Done. No subway.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Damaging the forest is simply unacceptable. The TTC must find another solution.

Relocating businesses and homes is also unacceptable. Theses are people's lives we're messing with. Simply not an option

Also, I'm hoping the TTC wasn't planning to dig a hole. Holds negatively affect the local ecosystem underground. Find another solution.

 

[Rainforest]

Toronto Star: Popular woodlot threatened by Scarborough subway plans

From the article:

The TTC has proposed five potential sites at the intersection, two of which would damage the forest. But the other three would require relocating 13 businesses and 10 single-family dwellings. That means that unless an alternative is found, political leaders could be forced to choose between destroying the parkland and displacing people.

Neither option is acceptable to Councillor Glenn De Baeremaeker (Ward 38, Scarborough Centre). He argues the woodlot could be spared without having to expropriate any homes, if the mobilization site were moved north to the Scarborough Town Centre parking lot. TTC staff didn’t list that as an option, however, and if it’s not possible De Baeremaeker would prefer to locate the tunnel site at the south side of Ellesmere, where it would only displace commercial properties.

“The ugliest options are kicking people out of their homes and cutting down this spectacular woodlot. So I think those options are going to get dropped pretty fast,” said De Baeremaeker, who campaigned to save the parkland more than 20 years ago and is a vocal proponent of the subway.

“The woodlot will not be cut down,” he added. “It’s really an insult to all of us that the staff put it out there as an option.”​

I know there are worse city councillors out there, but my god, De Baeremaeker has been insufferable throughout this whole subway debate. He's the one who insisted on building a multi-billion dollar into the middle of suburban sprawl, and now he's stipulating that you can't knock down any suburban bungalows or trees to build it??

He is pretty reasonable. It is not even known if the option he proposes (launch site at STC) will cost any extra compared to the options on the table. If so, why not do it in a way that inconveniences less people.

 

[coffey1]

Scarboro

Don't knock down any single-story bungalows. Don't knock down any trees. Don't install sidewalks.

Three reasons not to build a subway in Scarborough. Done. No subway.

GlenD is correct when he says no forest needs to be destroyed. This really isn't rocket science & why we usually look at many design alternatives. Also please stop pretending NIMBY's don't reside in your neck of the woods. They just dont have a political media giant shining light for gain. There's also more high rises existing around STC than there are around many existing subways stops that have been built for decades. And that's even more telling after the massive boom we have just seen to build around transit. So again get off the bungalow narratives

This is nothing more than Political Bullying to a lower class. I really hoped Tory would keep thing on track but it seems next election is going to put us back into polarizing hell because the "haves" just refuse to back down and pay for some form of equity. I don't think this one stop subway will go far in an election & the industrial route LRT has had its day in the sun. Its a really sad situation for Scarborough residents.

You may not care about equality in the City but many people who would be affected by these poor LRT designs and absurd transfers (Sheppard) do care. There's a cost to equality & its time to pay.

 

[Rainforest]

Don't knock down any single-story bungalows. Don't knock down any trees. Don't install sidewalks.

Three reasons not to build a subway in Scarborough. Done. No subway.

I did not see many streets without sidewalks in Scarborough. Remember, this is an area with relatively high % of transit usage. How would people get to their buses if there were no sidewalks?

Streets without sidewalks are common in some areas north of Steeles though.

 

[coffey1]

I did not see many streets without sidewalks in Scarborough. Remember, this is an area with relatively high % of transit usage. How would people get to their buses if there were no sidewalks?

Streets without sidewalks are common in some areas north of Steeles though.

He learned everything about Scarborough from Toronto Star articles. So it must be true. In any event this has nothing to do with the SSE as all the streets have sidewalk around here. But im sure it felt good to throw it out there for no reason

 

[Johnny Au]

There are many streets without sidewalks in my neighbourhood.

 

[Rainforest]

Btw, the SSE ridership forecasts look very fishy to me. I mean both the new number of 7,200 pphpd at peak, and the one reported 2 years ago (14,000 pphpd at peak).

First of all, the current peak ridership is 5,500, and there is a proven latent demand of something like 500 on the 131E bus that TTC has to run in parallel with SRT because it cannot meet the demand. So, we have 6,000 pphpd right now, in 2016.

How can we expect that the natural growth in 15 years (till 2031), plus the effect of the faster and more convenient route, will add only 1,200 extra riders per hour.

Furthermore, how can two forecasts made just 2 years apart differ almost 2 times. I get that different groups did the modeling, but if both used established and somewhat compatible methods, the results cannot diverge so much. A 10% or 15% difference would be reasonable given the approximate nature of modeling. But 100%?

Frankly, I feel the latest number (7,200) is doctored downwards, whereas the previous one (14,000) was doctored upwards. The realistic expectation is probably in the range of 10,000 - 11,000.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

did not see many streets without sidewalks in Scarborough. Remember, this is an area with relatively high % of transit usage. How would people get to their buses if there were no sidewalks?

We jump on top of passing cars and jump off at our bus stop. Have you even been to Scarborough?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Btw, the SSE ridership forecasts look very fishy to me. I mean both the new number of 7,200 pphpd at peak, and the one reported 2 years ago (14,000 pphpd at peak).

Because the projection two years ago was for the Line 2 extension to Sheppard, while this is for the Line 2 extension to Scarborough Centre

How can we expect that the natural growth in 15 years (till 2031), plus the effect of the faster and more convenient route, will add only 1,200 extra riders per hour.

Furthermore, how can two forecasts made just 2 years apart differ almost 2 times

The Crosstown East LRT should be having a big impact on the Scarborough Subway projections. Remember, the Crosstown East has projected peak hour ridership of 5,500 approximately. That's higher than Line 4, and nearly as high as the current Line 3. It should be diverting a large number of commuters away from the SRT/SSE.

Also consider that the stop at Lawrence for the Line 2 extension was removed.

Edit: oh, and Smartttack

 

[Rainforest]

We jump on top of passing cars and jump off at our bus stop. Have you even been to Scarborough?

Yes, I've been in Scarborough a few times; on a bus, in a car, and even on foot. Can't claim that I know all parts of it. But in the areas I visited (mostly, along Sheppard East and around it), streets do have sidewalks.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Yes, I've been in Scarborough a few times; on a bus, in a car, and even on foot. Can't claim that I know all parts of it. But in the areas I visited (mostly, along Sheppard East and around it), streets do have sidewalks.

I'm in Scarborough a lot, and I wouldn't be surprised if more than half of the side streets didn't have sidewalks. Sidewalks aren't the norm.

 

[salsa]

First of all, the current peak ridership is 5,500, and there is a proven latent demand of something like 500 on the 131E bus that TTC has to run in parallel with SRT because it cannot meet the demans. So, we have 6,000 pphpd right now, in 2016.

How can we expect that the natural growth in 15 years (till 2031), plus the effect of the faster and more convenient route, will add only 1,200 extra riders per hour.

Presumably because of Smart Track.

Furthermore, how can two forecasts made just 2 years apart differ almost 2 times. I get that different groups did the modeling, but if both used established and somewhat compatible methods, the results cannot diverge so much. A 10% or 15% difference would be reasonable given the approximate nature of modeling. But 100%?

Frankly, I feel the latest number (7,200) is doctored downwards, whereas the previous one (14,000) was doctored upwards.

The original number was for a 3 stop subway, and also did not consider the effect of RER/Smart Track. Regardless, our leaders have seriously damaged their credibility with this whole subway fiasco. It's hard to take anyone seriously anymore when even the chief planner is still strongly defending this, knowing that the new numbers are so low that even the original LRT plan had higher projected ridership while being far less expensive and serving more neighbourhoods. At this point, the only thing that's certain is that with each passing month, we learn that this subway is an even shittier deal for the city than anyone could have imagined.