Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[Cobra]

For construction of the Eglinton Crosstown, the 34 Eglinton East adds between 6 and 11 minutes onto its trip time. I don't know what the average value is, but it's certainly higher than 6 minutes.

Now why is it acceptable for Eglinton East commuters to have to add 6 to 11 minutes onto their commute for construction, but unacceptable for Scarborough commuters to have to add 6 minutes onto their commutes for construction?

Like I said, if Eglinton can deal with 6 to 11 minutes longer trip times for nearly a decade, Scarborough can deal with an average of 6 minute longer trip times for 3 years. Suck it up.

Good thing it wasn't up to you...
The added costs to the TTC would have been quite substantial to run that shuttle service...
longer travel time wasn't the only factor here

 

[Cobra]

bah, it's times like this I wish we went with neither the subway or LRT. Rather an upgrade/conversion to MK-III (or virtually any light metro rolling stock...there's literally dozens of manufacturers). Cost of conversion would be measured in hundreds of $Millions (somewhere under $0.5bn), and closure would be a matter of months. This would've offered equal or better service than the LRT (with cost measured in $Billions, and a closure of up to 3yrs). Same tech could've also been used for TYSSE and ditto for the future YNSE. Since we ignore alternatives and polarize debates, it's obvious the region is in a pickle.

My understanding is that MK-III couldn't handle that curve at Kennedy...Anyone can correct me if I'm wrong

 

[robmausser]

My understanding is that MK-III couldn't handle that curve at Kennedy...Anyone can correct me if I'm wrong

It cant and that section would have to be rebuilt but that is still a very small cost compared to any other option (LRT, subway etc)

Btw, I think that its asinine to not build a transit model that is more cost effective and serves more residents (the subway on RT alignment) simply because you have to have the older rapid transit line shut down for some time.

That's the cost of progress and doing things right sometimes.

 

[nfitz]

My understanding is that MK-III couldn't handle that curve at Kennedy...Anyone can correct me if I'm wrong

Correct. Moving the current platform to a surface location (presumably just west of the existing GO platforms) was part of the $190-million plan that TTC approved in 2006 to upgrade the existing line to use Mark II equipment.

 

[Cobra]

It cant and that section would have to be rebuilt but that is still a very small cost compared to any other option (LRT, subway etc)

Btw, I think that its asinine to not build a transit model that is more cost effective and serves more residents (the subway on RT alignment) simply because you have to have the older rapid transit line shut down for some time.

That's the cost of progress and doing things right sometimes.

When the projected ridership was 14,000 pphpd, subway was justified for that corridor. It was the best of 2 worlds
-No SRT shutdown while subway being built
-Ridership justified the upgrade and the cost of building it

at 7,300 pphpd, I agree, it's bad but if you look at the data closer
-Smarttrack is the reason why the ridership went down. It's slitting the ridership between 2 north-south line in half.

All I'm saying is that the subway will get built, nut there's still time to ensure it's not a white elephant. Cancelling the Smarttrack stations south of the 401 and bringing back Lawrence East Station would get the ridership right where it's supposed to be

 

[Cobra]

Correct. Moving the current platform to a surface location (presumably just west of the existing GO platforms) was part of the $190-million plan that TTC approved in 2006 to upgrade the existing line to use Mark II equipment.

Thank you for confirming.
That's what council should have done. Minimal costs, minimal disruptions for optimal results.

That's one line Transit City should have left out of it's plan and just go ahead with the TTC original plan... we wouldn't be in this mess today

 

[jcam]

When the projected ridership was 14,000 pphpd, subway was justified for that corridor. It was the best of 2 worlds
-No SRT shutdown while subway being built
-Ridership justified the upgrade and the cost of building it

at 7,300 pphpd, I agree, it's bad but if you look at the data closer
-Smarttrack is the reason why the ridership went down. It's slitting the ridership between 2 north-south line in half.

All I'm saying is that the subway will get built, nut there's still time to ensure it's not a white elephant. Cancelling the Smarttrack stations south of the 401 and bringing back Lawrence East Station would get the ridership right where it's supposed to be

But they're not going to drop two relatively inexpensive surface stops on GO RER to put back in an expensive subway station at an intersection that doens't have a lot of densification potential.

 

[Cobra]

But they're not going to drop two relatively inexpensive surface stops on GO RER to put back in an expensive subway station at an intersection that doens't have a lot of densification potential.

The 2 stop subway was the Ontario plan if the city withdrew their funding for this line. Just hoping they stick to their guns like they initially said they would.

Option A
Ontario Funding + City Funding= 3 Stop subway

Option B
Ontario funding only=2 Stop subway

The new Option C
1 stop subway=savings
Ontario Funding + Savings + city funding=1 Stop subway + Crosstown East and Smarttrack East
*Ridership gets split in half and Scarborough subway = not cost effective

Since the subway will happen, the best fix in my opinion is
Option D
1 stop subway=savings
Savings+Ontario Funding + city funding=1 Stop subway + Crosstown East

*No Smarttrack East Stations south of the 401 in Southern Scarborough
*add Lawrence East Station and Sheppard Station at a later time (Back in queue of priorities)

Other factors:

• The Federal Government is willing to take up to 50% of the capital cost of a shovel ready project.
• The extra funds the Federal Liberals pledged to Tory's Smarttrack

There are options and solutions here. Am I saying that all that money should go to Scarborough? No. We have other more pressing priorities, hence advocating for the 1 stop subway + Crosstown East and to defer the rest, reallocating those funds for the much needed Relief Line or Waterfront LRT.

For me, Tory's meddling is becoming a huge concern for this city.

• First, Smarttrack over Relief Line
• Then,Smarttrack over Eglinton West
• Now, Smarttrack over Scarborough subway, cannibalizing it's ridership...turning it into another Vaughan extension.

What's next?
Smarttrack over Waterfront?

 

[smallspy]

6 minutes is best case scenario...

My bus and streetcar schedule seems to get derailed whenever mother nature gets angry...

I took the 131E for several years when I was going to school 10+ years ago. I would say that the average trip time was give-or-take 16 minutes, versus the 12 minutes for the SRT.

Even with traffic worsening in the intervening years, I'm inclined to agree with the TTC's expectation of an additional 6 minutes of travel time as an average over the SRT.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[rbt]

Because SmartTrack can't provide the frequencies necessary for SCC.

That's not strictly true but that is how Tory wants it shown. SmartTrack can't provide frequencies necessary for SCC without widening the corridor.

SmartTrack's original $7B budget (over RER) had plenty of funds for widening the corridor and even providing for an underground station away from Union. Now that the budget seems to have been slashed to well under half that original amount (province has $0, city has a few scraps, feds will match city) it's a struggle. Tory found the city cupboards were bare (TIF plan is coming up dry too) and opted to abandon the project rather than bump property taxes. Maybe a wise move as I think GO will get there eventually (2040's) on it's own.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Good thing it wasn't up to you...
The added costs to the TTC would have been quite substantial to run that shuttle service...
longer travel time wasn't the only factor here

I took the 131E for several years when I was going to school 10+ years ago. I would say that the average trip time was give-or-take 16 minutes, versus the 12 minutes for the SRT.

Even with traffic worsening in the intervening years, I'm inclined to agree with the TTC's expectation of an additional 6 minutes of travel time as an average over the SRT.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

And if I recall correctly, the replacement busses will be getting dedicated lanes for the three year shut down. That'll help a little bit.

 

[Cobra]

And if I recall correctly, the replacement busses will be getting dedicated lanes for the three year shut down. That'll help a little bit.

But what about the added costs (operational), additional infrastructure (new bus garage), staff (over 60 new drivers including added benefits), overtime and logistic nightmare that the TTC seemed not to want no part off?

*(I watched a session of city council where Byford clearly didn't want to get stuck with that scenario)

 

[TheTigerMaster]

But what about the added costs (operational), additional infrastructure (new bus garage), staff (over 60 new drivers including added benefits), overtime and logistic nightmare that the TTC seemed not to want no part off?

*(I watched a session of city council where Byford clearly didn't want to get stuck with that scenario)

It's tiny compared to the costs of the underground 3-stop extension.

 

[Forgotten]

This Tory plan is short sighted just like Planning's plan for the downtown line. A tiny bit of short term pain in exchange for a proper subway to go north of the 401 is the right move.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

If the town hall last night was any indication, Scarborough residents are pissed about this 1 stop subway. They're pissed that it's 1 stop, they're pissed that it's $2.5 Billion, they're pissed that the ridership was so low, they're pissed about the expropriations and they're pissed it's not going north of 401. The loudest cheers were for people railing against the subway, which was a first.

IMO, endorsing the 4-stop SRT corrior is the only way Tory can win this debate, and finally put this subway/LRT debate to rest. This option also happens to be the best option from a network bundling standpoint.