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Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

interchange42 said:
Anyone invoking the Ford when posting knows that they are playing with fire: with all the baggage that comes with Ford, to mention him is to auto-troll. Anyone who repeats the name Ford in a follow-up post tacitly agrees to join the auto-trolling.

So everyone, get over it. Any mention of Ford is trolling, and it's absolutely, completely, and utterly too boring for any Mod to have to deal with which poster was a little trollier than the other. Get some rest, and move on.

42
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Unreal

Sorry my posts were not trolling, nor was the UT F-word used in an offensive manner. I would say many of the responses I received could be considered offensive and discussed nothing of transit or Politics of transit. But guess it is what it is in this place.

I guess it's similar to trying to discuss Kathleen Wynne in the Toronto Sun comments section where they probably consider any mention trolling. Pretty sad we can't have a balanced conversation related to the Politics of transit here without being called a troll. Certainly disappointing coming from a mod.

Thanks
 
Real, but, I'm not saying that you cannot mention Ford, just don't pretend that you didn't know someone might object.

Everyone knows that mentioning Ford will cause some others to take umbrage. It's automatic. There is no way to mention Ford without pissing some other people off. By mentioning Ford in a post, you know you'll get an inflamed reaction from someone. By extension, anyone disagreeing with the Ford post in a reply is just as likely to piss some other people off.

For anyone to mention Ford is to tacitly agree to an argument where people will be upset, so think twice about getting into a Ford-anti-Ford back-and-forth. Consider just not responding.

It comes down to this:
1) post about Ford if you feel you need to, but keep it on topic to the thread,
2) respond to a post about Ford if you feel you need to, but keep it on topic to the thread,
3) if you're one of the ones posting about Ford, don't bug the Mods with "oh, I'm sooooooo freaking offended by Ford Post A or Anti-Ford Post B" because yes, of course you are, who cares, no-one really, get some perspective, shrug it off, and move on. The Mods did not sign up to spend their life mediating your ill-advised Ford-off.

42
 
We can discuss the substance of the issues and the sentiments without giving credit to a given politician. Would anybody say that there's no credibility to the fact that a certain portion of the American electorate is angry and that they are voting for Trump? Similarly, why is it any surprise when coffey1 says that he understands the electorate's sentiments and its susceptibility to a character like Ford.

Anybody who dismisses that sentiment out of hand, is making the same mistake Ford's opponents made.

To counter that sentiment, you can't just dismiss it. You have to understand it, challenge it, and ultimately present plans that assuage voter concerns.

It's not healthy for the city at all, if Scarborough voters remain angry and keep voting for demagogues who happen to be the only politicians addressing their concern. I will fully admit that my fandom of Smart Track (despite it's many issues) is that I see the opportunity to change the tenor of the debate. And hopefully, it gets suburban voters thinking about a transit system rather than a zero-sum interaction on bringing a subway close to their home. Whatever happens with that plan, we need to have all of the 416 residents thinking of every transit service in the city as accessible to them. Voters need to move to a frame of mind where they can imagine taking an LRT to a GO Train to a subway to get to work. Right now, they can't imagine that. So they're clamouring for subways. That's the only form of transit they know that's fast and cheap. We need to change that mindset.
 
So um, bout that Scarb-brah subway eh?

I'm very interested to see what Matlow's motion to study an at-grade subway extension achieves. If there is any at-grade construction, that will require purchasing/expropriating homes and building noise-walls. That would be a hilarious F-U to Scarb subway advocates. 'Oh, you want to stand for conservative values of fiscal restraint and demand a subway at the same time? Sure, but we will need your house!'
 
DonValleyRainbow said:
I'm very interested to see what Matlow's motion to study an at-grade subway extension achieves.
Click to expand...

I would say it's a getting-closer-to-last-ditch attempt by the side of Council that still has reservations about the Subway extension, searching for another 'creative alternative' that would save the subway expense without provoking a head-on we-they confrontation with the angry Scarboro faction.

I was half serious when I said earlier that if above ground is found to be promising, the next motion will be to examine whether low floor would be superior to high platform. And the motion after that would study whether, given above ground alignment and low floor vehicle profile, would pantograph be better than third rail. It's the 180 turn in 5 degree increments thing.

There is clearly a hard core of Scarberians who truly feel they have been jerked around and believe that only a subway will reverse that. But there may be many who are angry but don't care about the fine details of transit design and can be wooed. If, similar to the recent Keesmaat revision, a design emerges that spends the same money on Scarboro but spreads it out to more areas, there could be a tipping point.

Matlow is just keeping that ball rolling, in an unobtrusive and palatable manner.

- Paul
 
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Part of the whole reason the subway was brough back over the LRT was because the local politicians were a little concerned about a long shutdown (per public perception...not mine) impacting their re-election chances. The surface subway would impose that shutdown while also reducing corridor capacity. Good incremental approach to go back to LRT I guess. But I can't imagine all those Scarborough councillors, MPPs and MPs being happy about this.
 
DonValleyRainbow said:
So um, bout that Scarb-brah subway eh?

I'm very interested to see what Matlow's motion to study an at-grade subway extension achieves. If there is any at-grade construction, that will require purchasing/expropriating homes and building noise-walls. That would be a hilarious F-U to Scarb subway advocates. 'Oh, you want to stand for conservative values of fiscal restraint and demand a subway at the same time? Sure, but we will need your house!'
Click to expand...

There's no doubt Matlow is pandering to his base by delaying and looking "facts" to support ways to give Scarborough the big F-U. The downtown left becomes very Conservative when it comes to suburban growth. In any event I would be shocked to see anything but a subway built to STC at this point no matter how hard anyone attempts.

Tory would never see the Mayors seat again & it would be fireworks during the next election. He's already opened the door slightly to critics by re-vamping the plan, & welcoming further studies. That will certainly not sit well in Scarborough if not resolved come election time.

Transit City had a decent chance if it was fully funded initially the first time around, but McGuinty butchered the funding & this patch network combined with the highly questionable integration design flaws it was an easy target. Taking away the SSE after it's gone this far politically would do nothing good to unify the City. But would certainly create an entertaining election
 
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coffey1 said:
There's no doubt Matlow is pandering to his base by delaying and looking "facts" to support ways to give Scarborough the big F-U. The downtown left becomes very Conservative when it comes to suburban growth. In any event I would be shocked to see anything but a subway built to STC at this point no matter how hard anyone attempts.
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Meh. I know Matlow and his attitudes sometimes, but I'm a little less pessimistic in this case. Seems like more of an effort to reduce the exorbitant cost of a single stop subway extension. After all, if we made a portion of it at grade, wouldn't additional stations be cheaper? I'm looking at you, Lawrence and McCowan.
 
kEiThZ said:
Part of the whole reason the subway was brough back over the LRT was because the local politicians were a little concerned about a long shutdown (per public perception...not mine) impacting their re-election chances. The surface subway would impose that shutdown while also reducing corridor capacity. Good incremental approach to go back to LRT I guess. But I can't imagine all those Scarborough councillors, MPPs and MPs being happy about this.
Click to expand...

How would it reduce corridor capacity?
 
DonValleyRainbow said:
So um, bout that Scarb-brah subway eh?

I'm very interested to see what Matlow's motion to study an at-grade subway extension achieves. If there is any at-grade construction, that will require purchasing/expropriating homes and building noise-walls. That would be a hilarious F-U to Scarb subway advocates. 'Oh, you want to stand for conservative values of fiscal restraint and demand a subway at the same time? Sure, but we will need your house!'
Click to expand...

Zero homes should need to be expropriated for a surface subway extension. The subway would run on the west side of the rail corridor, which is lined exclusively by parkland and a dozen or so industrial businesses, nearly all of whom use the land for parking.
 
DonValleyRainbow said:
Meh. I know Matlow and his attitudes sometimes, but I'm a little less pessimistic in this case. Seems like more of an effort to reduce the exorbitant cost of a single stop subway extension. After all, if we made a portion of it at grade, wouldn't additional stations be cheaper? I'm looking at you, Lawrence and McCowan.
Click to expand...


Also a subway stop may have greater benefit on Lawrence instead of the ST given the location & recently proposed development. Even more intriguing if this is the possibility to extend to Centennial & Markham Sheppard. So if the benefits were that high It would certainly outweigh the shutdown of the RT & the with full Eglinton Crosstown Scarborough would have a great footprint. Hopefully it's possible

But in Toronto Politics this could just be another page in the 100 year conceptual design process
 
TheTigerMaster said:
If the subway can indeed be extended along the SRT corridor to Sheppard & Markham and eventually Malvern, there's no question that this would be the best proposal yet
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Yes, it would be a good proposal IF the existing guideway and stations can be recycled. If everything has to be demolished, including the elevated right-of-way, then that prohibitively adds to the costs.
 
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