pman
Senior Member
If Toronto ever implements continuous phased construction, we can expect the Scarborough subway to eventually run to Peterborough, to support the exciting employment and urbanization prospects in the hub of the Kawarthas.
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Filip
Senior Member
Yes.. We are Toronto, a completely unique microcosm of just about anything, to the point that leveraging best practices from other developed countries is just impossible.
We don't have $400MM per km to build the DRL, therefore, let's find ways of lowering that cost.
San Francisco is building the new Transbay Terminal, which involves approach tunnels for CalTrain (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transbay_Transit_Center). They're also building the Central Subway, which will extend the T Line from it's current terminus, under downtown and up into Chinatown (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Subway).
They have projected price tags of $4.5 billion and $1.578 billion (2.74 km). That works out to $576 million/km ($USD) for the Central Subway.
smallspy
Senior Member
Bad news for you - we are.
No other location in the world has our combination of tax and regulatory structure, cost-of-living, manpower requirements, geology, built form, etc.
And this isn't meant to make Toronto seem like an outlier - every single city on the planet is different from everywhere else for exactly those same set of reasons.
Now, while that doesn't mean that we can't look to see what is done elsewhere, it does mean that we can't just lift whole methods and techniques wholesale, and it does make comparisons and contrasts a bit more difficult.
I guess if there's one thing to take away from this, it's that at least it doesn't cost as much to build here as it does in London or New York.
Ack, totally forgot about San Fransisco. My apologies, and thanks for the maths.
Dan
Toronto, Ont.
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AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Sorry, upping the accessibility standards to allow for that will pretty much ensure it won't be ready prior to umm, your passing.
I wonder how much of a premium the seismic requirements imposes on the cost in SF.
AoD
Filip
Senior Member
Yes, our unique water table is difficult to manage - especially when the soil beneath the city is extremely good for tunneling.
Point is, a lot of what you said is regulatory... The government can either change the laws in order to pay less for infrastructure, or let costs continue to spiral out of control. This is simple cost management in the end. The TTC or Metrolinx is not in the business to create 'great' jobs, their role is to provide infrastructure at a reasonable cost. We should be able to leverage manpower from overseas, and in the process, lower our domestic costs. Who doesn't like competition?
Los Angeles has started construction on a extension of the Purple line subway. Not downtown but close.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
LA has the regional connector too.. Its an LRT tunnel, but it runs right through their downtown.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_Connector_Transit_Corridor
Ottawa's LRT also can't be forgotten, its so close to us.
Toronto is building their metro lines cheaper than anywhere else in North America right now from my understanding.. $400 million per km is fairly cheap. Montreal is typically cheaper, but they manage that because of their single bore tunnel method.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_Connector_Transit_Corridor
Ottawa's LRT also can't be forgotten, its so close to us.
Toronto is building their metro lines cheaper than anywhere else in North America right now from my understanding.. $400 million per km is fairly cheap. Montreal is typically cheaper, but they manage that because of their single bore tunnel method.
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kEiThZ
Superstar
Those areas are a lot more urban and older. More akin to the DRL than the suburban construction for the SSE. SF is also much more expensive to build in than Toronto.
ILuvTO
Active Member
I was thinking more along the lines of extending the Yonge line to Hwy 7, finishing Sheppard to STC, and also completing the DRL so that it connects to BD in the west. But if you want to be snarky for no reason, please continue. And nowhere did I say building 1-2 stops would continue forever.
Have a wonderful day.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
We would be able to do that if we implemented a sales tax of 1% or less. Of course that will never happen.
No worries!
Good question. I would assume it would be about the same as LA or Vancouver, since they're in the same type of seismically active zone.
More urban than Downtown Toronto? I'd put them at about the same. Not Manhattan, but certainly not the suburbs either.
LNahid2000
Senior Member
San Francisco's Central Subway will go through their financial district and Chinatown. It felt more dense to me than downtown Toronto for sure when I was there last April.
According to the San Francisco Planning Department, Chinatown is "the most densely populated urban area west of Manhattan", with 15,000 residents living in 20 square blocks.[17] In the 1970s, the population density in Chinatown was seven times the San Francisco average.[18] The estimated total population in the 2000 Census was at 100,574 residents.[3]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinatown,_San_Francisco
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Their financial district (let's say Market & Sansome) is pretty dense, but so is King & Bay. The density of the area the Central Subway is going through and the area the DRL would be going through is pretty similar. Also, the Central Subway is going underneath the Market St Subway, something the DRL will also have to deal with.
kEiThZ
Superstar
I thinking like the parts of the DRL that would be east of the Don River. Also the terrain in SF....