Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[kEiThZ]

That point can't be stated enough. And a long shutdown with its associated political risks is why Sheppard will never be converted to LRT.

If Sheppard can't be shut down because of political risk then what makes people think the SRT could be shut down when it has even more ridership!

3 years no less! I could see every councillor, MPP and MP along the line getting turfed.

Sheppard could be a mixed bag. Some votes to be had at places getting in-fill stations and from those happy to avoid a forced transfer. And Sheppard wouldn't take 3 years to convert.

 

[kEiThZ]

By using the hydro corridor then tunnel at Brimley they could do all the work on that huge section without having to even tough the current SRT route and if they used elevation they could basically run the SRT problem free and get the Scar subway built much cheaper and faster.

They aren't using the Hydro Corridor. I thought the report laid out the benefits and directed then to consider Eglinton-Danforth-McCowan. They'll want the chance to rough in stations at McCowan/Lawrence if possible. The current Lawrence station is not in an ideal location.

I'm sceptical about the old hydro corridor. It's a lot of time consuming expropriation. And once you start discussing elevated tracks the public consultation and EAs would kill this.

Eglinton-Danforth-McCowan is easy. Minimal expropriation. And long term growth potential.

 

[gweed123]

That point can't be stated enough. And a long shutdown with its associated political risks is why Sheppard will never be converted to LRT.

Conceivably you can convert Sheppard to LRT more easily than you can the SRT to LRT though. Here's how I envision it happening:

Step 1: Reduce Sheppard trains to pairs (down from 4 cars), and double the frequency. Minor increase in operating costs, but it needs to happen.
Step 2: Wall off half of the Sheppard platforms, so that the subway is operating entirely from either the eastern or western half of the platform.
Step 3: Lower the platforms and associated infrastructure (stairs, elevators, escalators) on the half that has been closed off.
Step 4: Shut the subway down over a summer to convert the tracks, electrical, and signaling equipment to run low-floor LRT vehicles. Run shuttle buses instead. Since it's the summer, demand is less and people don't mind waiting outside as much.
Step 5: Begin work on the other halves of the platforms (lowering, adjusting access infrastructure, etc) while the track and electrical work is going on.
Step 6: Re-open the subway running LRT vehicles on the completed halves of the platforms. Work continues on the other halves.
Step 7: Re-open the other halves of the platforms to have full length, low floor LRV platforms.

 

[Rainforest]

Wow! Between $1.8 and $2.5 billion - before cost overruns, which we could ballpark at 20% for now - and we get exactly one new subway stop. Since this is more about the recognition of the people of Scarborough as every bit as good as the downtown elites, if a lot less densely housed, maybe we could just give every person in Scarborough a thousand bucks on the condition we never ever talk about extending the BD line again. It would be a lot cheaper and arguably wouldn't leave Scarborough transit significantly worse than the plan du jour.

You are forgetting one little thing: the need to transport riders between STC and Kennedy subway, demand reaching 9,000 or 10,000 at peak. There are solutions cheaper than the subway, but you will not have a thousand bucks per person left after you implement either of those solutions.

In the same vein, you could as well propose to shut down the TTC and give every resident of Toronto his/her share of the yearly subsidy, on the condition that they will never ask for public transit.

 

[Rainforest]

Conceivably you can convert Sheppard to LRT more easily than you can the SRT to LRT though. Here's how I envision it happening:

Step 1: Reduce Sheppard trains to pairs (down from 4 cars), and double the frequency. Minor increase in operating costs, but it needs to happen.
Step 2: Wall off half of the Sheppard platforms, so that the subway is operating entirely from either the eastern or western half of the platform.
Step 3: Lower the platforms and associated infrastructure (stairs, elevators, escalators) on the half that has been closed off.
Step 4: Shut the subway down over a summer to convert the tracks, electrical, and signaling equipment to run low-floor LRT vehicles. Run shuttle buses instead. Since it's the summer, demand is less and people don't mind waiting outside as much.
Step 5: Begin work on the other halves of the platforms (lowering, adjusting access infrastructure, etc) while the track and electrical work is going on.
Step 6: Re-open the subway running LRT vehicles on the completed halves of the platforms. Work continues on the other halves.
Step 7: Re-open the other halves of the platforms to have full length, low floor LRV platforms.

This procedure might violate the fire code requirements. When half of the platform is closed, the exit connected to that half will be unaccessible, leaving only one operational exit.

 

[gweed123]

This procedure might violate the fire code requirements. When half of the platform is closed, the exit connected to that half will be unaccessible, leaving only one operational exit.

That's a good point. There may be a way to keep that 2nd exit partially accessible. Would there be a way to get a temporary exemption? It would be far from the only subway stations in Toronto that only have 1 exit from platform level.

 

[pman]

You are forgetting one little thing: the need to transport riders between STC and Kennedy subway, demand reaching 9,000 or 10,000 at peak. There are solutions cheaper than the subway, but you will not have a thousand bucks per person left after you implement either of those solutions.

In the same vein, you could as well propose to shut down the TTC and give every resident of Toronto his/her share of the yearly subsidy, on the condition that they will never ask for public transit.

Actually I would propose that Toronto transit planning be based on demand and density, not suburban identity politics. Of course that'll never happen because, as RoFo taught us, folks deserve subways (except of course where ridership would actually justify the astronomical cost).

 

[Edward Skira]

While there maybe developers wanting to build condos and office developments, zoning and NIMBYs would rule against that.

Development is not coming to STC in any major way if the subway should all of sudden arrive. The cost of building a condo in STC is basically the same as downtown (save for the land cost). But the selling price developers can receive is much less than downtown. That's the reason there isn't a lot of development in Scarborough right now. The economics don't work. Same for office. Cheaper to locate in 905.

 

[kEiThZ]

Conceivably you can convert Sheppard to LRT more easily than you can the SRT to LRT though. Here's how I envision it happening:

Step 1: Reduce Sheppard trains to pairs (down from 4 cars), and double the frequency. Minor increase in operating costs, but it needs to happen.
Step 2: Wall off half of the Sheppard platforms, so that the subway is operating entirely from either the eastern or western half of the platform.
Step 3: Lower the platforms and associated infrastructure (stairs, elevators, escalators) on the half that has been closed off.
Step 4: Shut the subway down over a summer to convert the tracks, electrical, and signaling equipment to run low-floor LRT vehicles. Run shuttle buses instead. Since it's the summer, demand is less and people don't mind waiting outside as much.
Step 5: Begin work on the other halves of the platforms (lowering, adjusting access infrastructure, etc) while the track and electrical work is going on.
Step 6: Re-open the subway running LRT vehicles on the completed halves of the platforms. Work continues on the other halves.
Step 7: Re-open the other halves of the platforms to have full length, low floor LRV platforms.

I just wouldn't worry about Sheppard that much. First off, conversion is a long shot at best. The powers that be still don't understand how much transfers actually annoy people. Or they don't care. Next, if they are going to convert, it will not be anything like a 3 year SRT shutdown. It'll take place inside an electoral cycle. Which means that post-construction when there are new stations and no transfer, some of the anger will have ameliorated.

Shutting down the SRT was a whole different ballgame. Every rider would have to bus to Kennedy or Don Mills or Yonge. Easily adding 10-20 mins to everybody's commute, in each direction, for several years. They wouldn't have easily forgiven that.

 

[dowlingm]

Wow! Between $1.8 and $2.5 billion - before cost overruns, which we could ballpark at 20% for now - and we get exactly one new subway stop.

Check out the SRT ridership stats. A majority of all current SRT riders get on at STC. 3 subway stops would not mean 3x ridership at STC. Having a stop at Lawrence would be good for the hospital but is it worth $0.5bn? Not without lots of other development, especially since while some riders will be new, a lot will already be using TTC. STC has the possibility of enough critical mass to put a big chunk of development there which could generate extra ridership, and even then a bunch of other things have to go right.

 

[kEiThZ]

Actually I would propose that Toronto transit planning be based on demand and density, not suburban identity politics. Of course that'll never happen because, as RoFo taught us, folks deserve subways (except of course where ridership would actually justify the astronomical cost).

If Toronto transit planning was based on "demand and density", we wouldn't have a subway that's 400 million over budget heading to a Smart Centre in Vaughan at this very moment. Nor would we have GO lines that bypass tons of 416 ridership with fare policy designed to induce demand destruction through exceptionally high per km charges inside the 416. If we are going to acceede to building subways all over York Region, it's absolutely appropriate to ensure that provincially designated urban growth centres, and regional transport hubs (SC is both a GO and regional bus (ie Greyhound) hub) are actually connected. It's the height of hypocrisy to say that Vaughan was okay because we got a bribe (York U service) but Scarborough isn't, all while talking about extending Yonge to Hwy 7 no less!

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

The subway going to just STC should cost less then 3 billion, correct?

 

[kEiThZ]

Check out the SRT ridership stats. A majority of all current SRT riders get on at STC. 3 subway stops would not mean 3x ridership at STC. Having a stop at Lawrence would be good for the hospital but is it worth $0.5bn? Not without lots of other development, especially since while some riders will be new, a lot will already be using TTC. STC has the possibility of enough critical mass to put a big chunk of development there which could generate extra ridership, and even then a bunch of other things have to go right.

This. Moreover people just don't get the relationships between the stops. McCowan and Ellesmere are essentially reliever stations for SC. A lot of the traffic at McCowan is from feeder buses that continue into SC a minute later. People get off at McCowan because they want a seat the start of the line. Ditto for Ellesmere (to a slightly lesser extent). The buses continue into SC literally minutes later. Consolidating traffic at a single subway station won't dent ridership all that much. Especially when the new stop is being proposed across the street from the current McCowan station.

Lawrence is the only controversial one. Cheaper on Smart Track. More sensible on the subway.

An example of the above was my typical commute in university. Take the Tapscott/Progress bus. Get off at McCowan on the way to school so I could get a seat. Get on the bus at SC when returning home because that is the terminus for the bus.

 

[kEiThZ]

The subway going to just STC should cost less then 3 billion, correct?

I think even the $2.58 billion quoted is pessimistic. If it costs us $2.58 billion to build a one-stop extension using 6 km of suburban avenue, DRL dreamers better give up now.....

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I think even the $2.58 billion quoted is pessimistic. If it costs us $2.58 billion to build a one-stop extension using 6 km of suburban avenue, DRL dreamers better give up now.....

The DRL will be 8 to 9 just for the first half. Another 3 for Osgoode to Eglinton West and then 3 for Eglinton East/Don Mills to Sheppard. They could build it above ground but I don't know how that could be done at all .