Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[WislaHD]

Sheppard, too, in my opinion has a more complex landscape of opinions. Ford and some local BIA voices (notably several car dealers) made noise about LRT. Public opinion was more nuanced. From skepticism over actual benefit, to creating another Kennedy type transfer at Don Mills. I'd argue that the Sheppard subway debate could be neutralized tomorrow if the City argued for conversion to LRT and pitched it as, "just like Eglinton".

I truly hope Sheppard is postponed until after Eglinton opens. Then this option becomes much more politically and socially palatable to the public.

 

[sixrings]

Sheppard, too, in my opinion has a more complex landscape of opinions. Ford and some local BIA voices (notably several car dealers) made noise about LRT. Public opinion was more nuanced. From skepticism over actual benefit, to creating another Kennedy type transfer at Don Mills. I'd argue that the Sheppard subway debate could be neutralized tomorrow if the City argued for conversion to LRT and pitched it as, "just like Eglinton".

I too think the sheppard LRT would have worked if they eliminated the transfer which i support 100%. Although if I lived on sheppard I would have taken the LRT for now and when it was up complained complained complained until they converted the subway. At least there would have been something in the meantime.

 

[sixrings]

There is a third option. Tear down the single-detached houses and build duplexes, fourplexes, multiplexes!

This way, you can expand the housing supply, allow for more multi-person units useable by families, maintain the low-rise residential character of neighbourhoods, and allow for enough density to serve with transit.

What I am excited about is seeing all the SmartCentres and car dealerships being torn down in the future which are sitting on major roads like Eglinton, Dufferin, etc.

 

[kEiThZ]

There is a third option. Tear down the single-detached houses and build duplexes, fourplexes, multiplexes!

This way, you can expand the housing supply, allow for more multi-person units useable by families, maintain the low-rise residential character of neighbourhoods, and allow for enough density to serve with transit.

The places with the best business case for such teardowns often have neighbours who will fight such in-fill tooth and nail unfortunately. Especially in the core.

The suburbs arent exactly cheap either, it is just that you get more bang for your buck.

I'd dispute this. A good deal of Scarborough and Etobicoke is cheap in absolute terms. Not just per square foot. And more to the point, income-price ratio means that this is all a lot of people can afford without actually leaving the 416.

People need to start seeing this as an opportunity instead of a hindrance. The GTA has to absorb another million in the next 20 years. Do you want them in Scarborough or Oshawa? SCC will never be NYCC. But it should at least rival MCC. Putting a subway station at the corner of Bushy/McCowan for example, will rejuvenate the whole McCowan side of SCC.

 

[kEiThZ]

I too think the sheppard LRT would have worked if they eliminated the transfer which i support 100%. Although if I lived on sheppard I would have taken the LRT for now and when it was up complained complained complained until they converted the subway. At least there would have been something in the meantime.

The Scarborough Subway debate will put off anybody thinking of compromise. That extension has been promised in some form since when I was in high school. And every time it comes close, someone changes plans. Under that environment, why would anybody trust a politician who says conversion will happen afterwards?

As much as I respect a lot of transit advocates, many of them are utterly clueless to what real, breathing transit users actually want from their transit system. Or they aren't able to pitch an alternative vision well. Nor are any of them willing to accept compromises at all. For example, a lot of them now, are opposed to conversion of the Sheppard subway. Waste of money to them. Even though it makes the cheaper LRT far more saleable in the long run. We're going to have another fun five year debate after the SSE. Or the SELRT will be imposed on people in Scarborough will resent the city bureaucracy for another 30 years for the "Don Mills Transfer". I'm praying the mayor is smart enough to navigate this one....

What I am excited about is seeing all the SmartCentres and car dealerships being torn down in the future which are sitting on major roads like Eglinton, Dufferin, etc.

Would have happened even without transit. Changing nature of retail and car buying. But certainly the LRT will speed things up. I just hope people don't think this will change overnight. It could take two decades. Look how long Sheppard took to get real change with the subway. And NYCC has had subway for decades. Real densification didn't come to the fore till the 1990s.

 

[kEiThZ]

I truly hope Sheppard is postponed until after Eglinton opens. Then this option becomes much more politically and socially palatable to the public.

No need to wait till Sheppard opens. Tell the public that instead of building a subway, you are getting rid of the transfer with conversion, and adding in-fill stops (like Willowdale), and branches (like McCowan to SC). It will sell.

 

[BurlOak]

Where has anybody in Scarborough ever expressed opposition to LRT on Eglinton? Don't mistake Ford's rhetoric for the general opinion of everyone in Scarborough. There's support for LRT on Eglinton. At worst, indifference. I've never really heard of any opposition.

Once construction begins on the East part you will hear opposition. Based on what is under construction, half the population probably think a subway is being built.

 

[crs1026]

See, Paul, you just did it again. You keep using the word 'streetcar' and 'LRT' interchangeably, and cite Spadina as an LRT. That's not a 'layperson's view' -- that is just wrong. Why it continues to happen is due to the unbelievable white noise that old school right-wing politicians put up as a smoke screen. Spadina is no more an LRT or an equivalent to Eglinton crosstown as a bird is a squirrel. Sure, they're both animals that move from tree to tree. But a bird is not a squirrel.

I totally agree and promise to respect the difference, in theory. In practice, if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck......voila.

Laid out in the center of the street, with imperfect to non-existent traffic priority, stopping frequently, creating impediments to left turns. Which is it? That's what Eglinton East is getting. (Okay, I'm presuming the traffic priority will suck, and maybe it will surprise me).

If we want to get the right bang out of LRT, and have people notice the difference, we need to do better.

Of course, there is no reason why a true streetcar has to present these dynamics either. We just need to fix them. Then, people wouldn't care which term we use, because they would love them both.

- Paul

 

[TheTigerMaster]

See, Paul, you just did it again. You keep using the word 'streetcar' and 'LRT' interchangeably, and cite Spadina as an LRT. That's not a 'layperson's view' -- that is just wrong. Why it continues to happen is due to the unbelievable white noise that old school right-wing politicians put up as a smoke screen. Spadina is no more an LRT or an equivalent to Eglinton crosstown as a bird is a squirrel. Sure, they're both animals that move from tree to tree. But a bird is not a squirrel.

Spadina Streetcar: 14 km/h
Eglinton LRT (surface): 25 km/h
Yonge Line: 29 km/h

The LRT is 70% faster than the streetcar and a subway is only 16% faster than the LRT. People need to stop equating LRTs to streetcar. It's completely disingenuous, when the LRT is in fact closer in average speed to subways.

 

[crs1026]

Back when the original Malvern LRT was on the table, did anyone work out those numbers and compare to current bus times?

- Paul

 

[kEiThZ]

Back when the original Malvern LRT was on the table, did anyone work out those numbers and compare to current bus times?

- Paul

Vaguely. I think it was like 30% faster than the Morningside bus. Don't quote me on that though....

 

[kEiThZ]

Here's the provocative question. Does Rob Ford get credit for the Scarborough Subway, for his lobbying effort?

Or would we have had only LRT if not for Ford?

 

[sixrings]

As much as I respect a lot of transit advocates, many of them are utterly clueless to what real, breathing transit users actually want from their transit system. Or they aren't able to pitch an alternative vision well. Nor are any of them willing to accept compromises at all. For example, a lot of them now, are opposed to conversion of the Sheppard subway. Waste of money to them. Even though it makes the cheaper LRT far more saleable in the long run. We're going to have another fun five year debate after the SSE. Or the SELRT will be imposed on people in Scarborough will resent the city bureaucracy for another 30 years for the "Don Mills Transfer". I'm praying the mayor is smart enough to navigate this one....

Im pretty sure most transit advocates are also transit users... Ive never hear predominately car users talk passionately about transit and or go to transit meetings.

 

[Cobra]

Spadina Streetcar: 14 km/h
Eglinton LRT (surface): 25 km/h
Yonge Line: 29 km/h

The LRT is 70% faster than the streetcar and a subway is only 16% faster than the LRT. People need to stop equating LRTs to streetcar. It's completely disingenuous, when the LRT is in fact closer in average speed to subways.

To be fair, it's more so the TTC who deserve the blame as they marketed Spadina as such. They should make it clear that both LRT vs Streecar are very different.
We know it but you can't blame people not using this site on a regular basis make the difference

 

[TheTigerMaster]

To be fair, it's more so the TTC who deserve the blame as they marketed Spadina as such. They should make it clear that both LRT vs Streecar are very different.
We know it but you can't blame people not using this site on a regular basis make the difference

Someone will correctly if I'm wrong: I vaguely remember that the 510 Spadina was initially marketed as LRT, but was slowly downgraded to a typical streetcar service as the TTC folded to resident demands to add more local stops.

The closest thing that Toronto has to Transit City style LRT is the Queensway. The ECLRT will be a little bit faster than this: