Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[adeel]

at a small (in transit context) 500M addtl cost to offer double capacity in extending BD to mccowan and sheppard makes most sense to me.

I have long been an advocate for BD extension...seems to make the most sense

Also a q, are there any savings to be had (or does it actually cost more) by running SRT to end of useful life as opposed to running buses...any idea what kind of operating cost difference would be being looked at, or is it so minor as to be inconsequential?

 

[gweed123]

But how could you transfer the $2.3 billion from the LRT project, as it's all PPP financing, that requires the province to retain ownership? I'd think to extend an existing subway, and maintain City ownership, you'd have to extend the payments out for a long period of time to get the same cash flow impact to the provincial treasury.

Owned by Metrolinx, run by the TTC? Same as with Eglinton? Yes, it is more complicated because it's an extension of an existing line, but it's not impossible.

 

[nfitz]

Owned by Metrolinx, run by the TTC? Same as with Eglinton? Yes, it is more complicated because it's an extension of an existing line, but it's not impossible.

Eglinton might have TTC operations, but it will have private maintenance. Not sure how you'd run a subway line easily with a mix of different people responsible for different parts of the signalling system. It's an accident waiting to happen.

But that aside. Metrolinx is ready to start tendering. Do you really expect they'll simply stop and agree to yet another change? Particularly one like this that won't be shovel ready for years.

 

[M II A II R II K]

The subway extension makes more sense not only because of the transfer but an LRT would be just a feeder route. And trains can be short turned before Scarborough if there's too much capacity.

 

[gweed123]

Eglinton might have TTC operations, but it will have private maintenance. Not sure how you'd run a subway line easily with a mix of different people responsible for different parts of the signalling system. It's an accident waiting to happen.

But that aside. Metrolinx is ready to start tendering. Do you really expect they'll simply stop and agree to yet another change? Particularly one like this that won't be shovel ready for years.

It's worth a serious discussion at least. And I don't know the details of contracting stuff like that, but I would think that something could be worked out.

If the subway option is really a no-go, I just hope they can elevate Eglinton East. Needs to be one of the two.

 

[Jaye101]

at a small (in transit context) 500M addtl cost to offer double capacity in extending BD to mccowan and sheppard makes most sense to me.

I have long been an advocate for BD extension...seems to make the most sense

Also a q, are there any savings to be had (or does it actually cost more) by running SRT to end of useful life as opposed to running buses...any idea what kind of operating cost difference would be being looked at, or is it so minor as to be inconsequential?

It does make sense.. But we also have to ask what would be best for Scarborough City Centre.. 7 stations as opposed to three, much closer to the development occurring in Scarborough Centre, especially if Brimley station is eventually added. I personally think that rebuilding the current RT would be better for creating a pedestrian atmosphere in the area, while the extension of the subway would work best for funneling people downtown. I wish we could somehow get a mix of both.

 

[nfitz]

It's worth a serious discussion at least.

It's only worth a serious discussion if your goal is to derail $2-billion of provincial funding.

The time for serious discussion ended over 2 years ago!

I'm shocked anyone could seriously suggest that this be reopened after the report clearly shows that the subway isn't a better option than LRT.

 

[JayBeeGooner]

It's only worth a serious discussion if your goal is to derail $2-billion of provincial funding.

The time for serious discussion ended over 2 years ago!

I'm shocked anyone could seriously suggest that this be reopened after the report clearly shows that the subway isn't a better option than LRT.

Seriously. I am really tired of the subway/LRT debate. I lost respect for De Baermaeker. I figured he was a progressive politician. He just seems to be desperate to get some easy brownie points with Scarborough voters. We know the subway option is the most desirable, but the LRT plan isn't horrible either, and will service a larger area. I do not get why people have a problem with a network that serves a larger area.

 

[CapitalSeven]

The mystery to me (and many others) is that the RT refit and extension will cost more than the Ottawa light rail project, which is longer, has 13 stations, and includes 2.5 km of new tunnel.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Owned by Metrolinx, run by the TTC? Same as with Eglinton? Yes, it is more complicated because it's an extension of an existing line, but it's not impossible.

Why does Metrolinx want to own the lines anyways? What benefit does having two agencies responsible for the line provide transit riders. Just seems to complicate things.

 

[BurlOak]

. . . the LRT plan isn't horrible either, and will service a larger area. I do not get why people have a problem with a network that serves a larger area.

How the SRT can serve 47,000 and the subway 24,000, but the ridership is 31M vs. 36M. I would say that those 47,000 are not really being served if the service is not useful to them. If more people use the subway, then it serves more people.

Maybe I could say we spent good money to develop a network of sidewalks and pedestrian crossing signals to allow people to go from NE Scarborough to Downtown. This network serve 100% of the population (not just 47,000), but it is not useful to them so the actual number that use if for this is zero.

 

[BurlOak]

The mystery to me (and many others) is that the RT refit and extension will cost more than the Ottawa light rail project, which is longer, has 13 stations, and includes 2.5 km of new tunnel.

The cost of the SRT extension is $2.3B! This to refurbish a 6.5km line and a 3.5km extension. That is $230M/km for a line that is already mostly built. I always thought the total cost of this was $1.4B. It looks like the numbers are fudged to make the subway work out almost equal to the LRT.

 

[44 North]

The mystery to me (and many others) is that the RT refit and extension will cost more than the Ottawa light rail project, which is longer, has 13 stations, and includes 2.5 km of new tunnel.

I sure as shit don't get. I'm for retrofitting and extending anything elevated...but the costs are mind-boggling.

 

[BurlOak]

No, the worst-case scenario is if Metrolinx and the new Premier says "FU, we've already fully funded 3 different plans, we're not doing it again. There are other communities that want $2-billion in transit funding, so if you want subway, you'll have to find nearly $3-billion.

We seem to be in the situation where if the plans change, Metrolinx may want to cancel the funding, but if they do not change, then the new Premier will cancel it. I doubt Metrolinx can cancel it since that would have to made at the political level. The new Premier may cancel (change) it, especially if he was elected with a mandate to cancel or change it - similar to Ford.

This also will affect the ability of the government to raise new money for transit. If Metrolinx/TTC continue to build transit that people do not want, the opposition to new funding initiatives will be quite strong.

The time for serious discussion ended over 2 years ago!

Yes, we had a general election at that time and the one who strongly opposed this LRT option won on the campaign of cancelling it. It seems that if we go ahead with it, we are just asking for it to be cancelled again.

 

[adeel]

I don't really feel the last provincial election had much discussion of transit and what the people of toronto and ontario ultimately want. Toronto did, and as above, the pro subway candidate became mayor. Understanding that this is a council decision, but the only person who was voted on by the entire city were the mayoral candidates and it was pro subway.

Now, where subway is not warranted and costs too much, I don't have a problem. Ford campaigned on Sheppard, but its not feasible.

However, where subway is a realistic choice, where the cost is not that much higher, in a city that seemingly prefers subways if the price is right (referring to different polls), I think it makes sense to ask the people, or have some discussion about this, rather than metrolinx rejecting it out of hand. I think that is what is bothering me about this most.

Any SRT component is not going to be finished for what? 5 years? As far as I understand, that portion of it has not been started yet, or progress is not so far as to derail the entire project. It seems work is starting from the west anyways - no one is saying to stop that. But lets have an actual discussion about what it is people want, with an understanding that somehow we have to pay for this extra.

It seems like scare tactics just to leave the issue alone, but I don't think there is ever a wrong time to make the right decision.