Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[Rainforest]

IMO, the only way SmartTrack might work as a replacement for both Scarborough Subway and Scarborough LRT, is if an additional shuttle rail service runs between STC and Kennedy. Something like this:

Combined frequency of SmartTrack south of Ellesmere: 10 min or better.

Frequency of each branch (Markham and STC - Scarborough): 20 min or better.

STC - Kennedy Rail Shuttle: every 5 min, except when a SmartTrack Scarborough train runs. For example: SmartTrack trains leave STC at 7.00, 7.20, 7.40, 8.00. Rail Shuttles leave STC at 7.05, 7.10, 7.15, 7.25, 7.30, 7.35, 7.45, 7.50, 7.55.

By running frequent STC - Kennedy shuttles, one can get around some of the SmartTrack's limitations: frequencies through Union and through East Toronto. Since the shuttles would not go there, they would not compete for the track time.

At the same time, SmartTrack trains (1,500 per train x 3 times an hour) and Rail Shuttles (say 800 per train x 9 times an hour) can provide a combined capacity of about 12,000 pphpd between STC and Kennedy.

Between STC and Ellesmere, SmartTrack trains and Rail Shuttles would have to share the same pair of tracks (there is no room for more). Between Ellesmere and Kennedy, there should be room for up to 4 tracks; they could be shared between SmartTrack branches, Shuttles, and freight trains in a number of ways.

Potential remaining challenges: curve north of Ellesmere; maybe, grade-separation between the east-to-south and south-to-north trains; corridor width through STC; room at Kennedy to turn back the Rail Shuttles; the need to provide at least a 10-min frequency of SmartTrack through Union.

Convenience for riders: very fast and convenient for those going to CBD, but not so great for those who need to transfer to BD at Kennedy.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Why keep the Markam branch of SmartTrack?

What I'd do is run SmartTrack service on the corridor originally planned for the Scarborough LRT, and scrap any plans for service to Markham.

Edit: Basically what WilsaHD proposed.

 

[Rainforest]

Why keep the Markam branch of SmartTrack?

What I'd do is run SmartTrack service on the corridor originally planned for the Scarborough LRT, and scrap any plans for service to Markham.

Edit: Basically what WilsaHD proposed.

1) You will still have to run GO trains to Markham. Don't call them SmartTrack if you like, but they still compete for the track time.

2) By making the service to Markham, and to the Agincourt, Finch E, Steeles E stations within Toronto, less attractive, you increase the demand from STC; then you might again need the subway

 

[44 North]

I’d very much be on board with combining the SRT and RER. I think this northeast corner of TO will get a lot of attn in the next few decades with the development of the North Pickering lands, and would be a good opportunity to attempt something like this. Three new cities built from scratch... It’d a shame if some well-thought transit alignment wasn’t planned and financed before the first subdivisions come online. This 1994 map is interesting to look at, and gives some degree of semblance to the ideas being discussed here in the last few days.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Not too late to really talk transit in Scarborough: Keenan

Forum research, it turns out, was curious too. In a poll conducted January 24 and 25, they asked 843 randomly selected people, “Which would you prefer overall, a four-stop subway or a 30-stop LRT network across Scarborough, if each cost the same?” Fully 61 per cent of people chose the LRT network — a two-to-one majority over the 29 per cent who said they prefer the subway. Even among those in Scarborough, where the pro-subway sentiment is thought to be indomitable, a majority chose the LRT network, beating the subway alternative by 18 percentage points. The poll is considered accurate within 3 percentage points, 19 times out of 20.

 

[gweed123]

IMO, the only way SmartTrack might work as a replacement for both Scarborough Subway and Scarborough LRT, is if an additional shuttle rail service runs between STC and Kennedy. Something like this:

The way I see it is that you would have 4 GO RER/SmartTrack lines serving Scarborough (6 if you count Lakeshore). Two full length GO RER lines would run to Mount Joy and Malvern (or potentially Seaton) respectively. These services would run into Union. Two Toronto-specific GO RER lines (aka SmartTrack) would run to Unionville and STC respectively. These routes would use a Central Tunnel.

The frequencies of these 4 lines can be a base level service of 15 mins each (combined 7.5 for the pairs, 3.75 for all 4). During rush hour, you can tweak the services to run more of one, depending on demand. That would hit similar capacity targets to what you're describing.

 

[Palma]

That would be a good solution, but it would only work if you get rid of the transfer at Kennedy. This can only be done by grade-separating Eglinton. By the looks of it, this will not be done.

Thus, we are forced to look for other solutions.

Wit te decision to NOT connect te SRT wit te ECLRT

What is this nonesome about I transfer? When people come from west on Bloor line, is there a way to eliminate the transfer at St. George or Yonge in order for them to travel south and get off at St Andrews?

 

[drum118]

What is this nonesome about I transfer? When people come from west on Bloor line, is there a way to eliminate the transfer at St. George or Yonge in order for them to travel south and get off at St Andrews?

There was for 6 months when the University line open with every 2nd BD train using the University-Yonge Line.

Transferring is a fact of life, but it needs to be as painless as possibly. People think Kennedy is a bitch with its 3 levels, but they need to visit Europe to see how easy that station is to what people use on a daily base over there.

We waste a Billion Dollars or so to save a 5 minute transfer at worse time. The new layout for the LRT would be easier than today. Those using the Eglinton Line had the opportunity to save a transfer or 2 if the SRT was converted to LRT as plan, as well riding it years ahead of an subway.

Regardless what you use for the Smart Track, you will have to rebuilt the existing tunnel that can't be converted to a Mark II or III.

If the LRT plan was built as plan, it had the opportunity of expanding out into Durham down the road, but that is dead with this short stub extension being built.

As for the backyard of an LRT extension, I did a photo and video shoot of that corridor 100%. There is a different in elevation between the backyards to the point they will be either above or below the surface tracks. You would have a tunnel under Sheppard and the only location for one for the full extension.

 

[BurlOak]

What is this nonesome about I transfer? When people come from west on Bloor line, is there a way to eliminate the transfer at St. George or Yonge in order for them to travel south and get off at St Andrews?

No.

But the transfer at Keele was eliminated because they were never stupid enough to have one in the first place

 

[Palma]

No.

But the transfer at Keele was eliminated because they were never stupid enough to have one in the first place

Keele is straight along the Bloor line where as on the Danforth, after Main, the subway does start to curve and at Kennedy goes north. It would be like the Bloor line, once it gets to Yonge, runs north up Yonge in stead of the 1 transfer people need to do and that is get off to transfer onto the Yonge line to go north.

I was in England this Summer, and I remember one line, we got off and had to walk about 10 min, going up 2 flights, walking in between, and then 1 down flight and more walking. I thought it was never going to end. All I kept thinking about was how people complain about 1 transfer (at Kennedy). Nevermind always having to walk up stairs in London as we never saw escalators. But boy was I happy at the end with the weight I lost.

 

[44 North]

We waste a Billion Dollars or so to save a 5 minute transfer at worse time.

Exactly. Makes little sense to me. And in terms of quality of service, a rebuilt SRT to LRT is right on par with fully underground subways. At least IMO. Naysayers try to lump such a rapid transit system as the S(L)RT into the streetcar category, which is ridiculous. It's hands down a full-fledged metro.

If the LRT plan was built as plan, it had the opportunity of expanding out into Durham down the road

Yup. I don't think many realize, but we have the equivalent of about three cities being planned in North Pickering. I highly doubt an extension of the B/D line would be extended that far (at least not in the next quarter millennium); but a grade-separate SRT-style LRT seems very much doable. Or at least it was.

 

[Rainforest]

If the LRT plan was built as plan, it had the opportunity of expanding out into Durham down the road, but that is dead with this short stub extension being built.

Why is it dead? LRT can start either at STC or at the McCowan / Sheppard subway terminus, dependent on where the subway ends. That LRT still can go into Durham.

The incremental cost of extending the LRT beoynd Toronto's border will be same whether the LRT starts at Kennedy or at STC.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The Scarborough Subway is looking increasingly troubled:

In response to the negative impact that SmartTrack will have on the Line 2 extension, the scope of the project has been expanded east to Markham Road:

The nine corridors being considered all travel through Scarborough Centre:

At a media briefing regarding the consultations, one question was pursued at some length: what happens if the alternatives such as a Markham Road alignment are substantially more expensive than the amount contemplated by Council when it approved the SSE? City staff were somewhat evasive on this topic as one might expect give the sensitivity of the question. The basic problem is that in launching the study, Council did not explicitly say “by the way, don’t propose anything that will go over budget”, and staff are now faced with some pressure to move the subway in order to gain more riders.

...

The SSE study must report back later in 2015 given the need to nail down a specific subway proposal as part of a larger package of rapid transit schemes now under study. If the subway survives this process, detailed design would begin sometime in 2016 following provincial approval of the Transit Project Assessment (a mini EA), construction in 2018, and revenue service in 2023.

Steve Munro

 

[innsertnamehere]

I see steve had the same issues with getting a good quality image for the corridor options as I did for the UT article.. I ended up having to scan the handout sheet I was given.


The UT article on the subject is now live as well:

http://urbantoronto.ca/news/2015/01/scarborough-subway-planning-advances-corridor-selection

The City staff were also pretty adamant at the meeting that the extension of the study area is simply to explore the option, I feel that the eastward extension of the line will quickly be eliminated in the shortlisting of corridors for the next phase of the study.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I see steve had the same issues with getting a good quality image for the corridor options as I did for the UT article..


The UT article on the subject is now live as well:

http://urbantoronto.ca/news/2015/01/scarborough-subway-planning-advances-corridor-selection

Thanks. Updated with higher quality images.