Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[TheTigerMaster]

I think it would have a lot more ridership than Sheppard. It would be a fast line from mississauga to downtown.

When the TTC studied the Eglinton West LRT a few years ago, they found that ridership in the segment would be in BRT range. Considering that Tory wants only 3 stations along Eglinton West, I'd be surprised if 5,000 persons per hour use those stations along Eglinton West.

That said, SmartTrack has a direct downtown connection, so that does change the situation significantly. This is why it needs to be studied. But either way I don't expect usage to be high enough to make subway construction permissible (~10,000+ pphpd)

 

[ehlow]

When the TTC studied the Eglinton West LRT a few years ago, they found that ridership in the segment would be in BRT range. Considering that Tory wants only 3 stations along Eglinton West, I'd be surprised if 5,000 persons per hour use those stations along Eglinton West.

That said, SmartTrack has a direct downtown connection, so that does change the situation significantly. This is why it needs to be studied. But either way I don't expect usage to be high enough to make subway construction permissible (~10,000+ pphpd)

Yeah, it's not the same thing as Eglinton West LRT extension. Firstly, it's a much faster ride with much fewer stops, more regional in nature than local. Secondly, it continues onto downtown as you mention. So it's more attractive for someone living in Mississauga heading downtown for work. The Mississauga Busway also connects at ST, so Mississauga buses could feed into the line.

 

[crs1026]

Remember that this plan calls for a subway to be built under Eglinton West.

Yeah, that's a dumb place for a subway, although it would be cheaper to construct than one through the downtown core where old pilings and utilities are much more of a challenge.

If, as suggested, Scarboro is just going to keep growing as a bedroom community for downtown Toronto workers, then I would still favour RER as the north-south 'spine' for Scarboro, and save the funds from a Line 2 extension for a better solution for Sheppard.

- Paul

 

[WislaHD]

I think Eglinton West spur has potential if it continues to Mississauga, maybe that is why Bonnie Crombie endorsed Tory and SmartTrack during the election. Otherwise, I wonder what Metrolynx will make of it considering it effectively renders UPX useless.

 

[Tuscani01]

I think Eglinton West spur has potential if it continues to Mississauga, maybe that is why Bonnie Crombie endorsed Tory and SmartTrack during the election. Otherwise, I wonder what Metrolynx will make of it considering it effectively renders UPX useless.

Crombie's transit vision included two connections to Tory's Smart Track:

http://bonniecrombie.ca/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Mississauaga-transit-Map-Simple-2.pdf

Markham also sounds like it is on board with Tory's plan:

http://www.yorkregion.com/news-story/4543819-mayoral-hopeful-tory-includes-markham-in-transit-plan/

 

[Rainforest]

The Tory Smarttrack proposal is an attempt to avoid the enormous cost of a DRL. In my view, that's a wise motive....a DRL is phenomenally costly and will drive development where it isn't desirable (ie in the Pape-Chester area)

Not sure why development isn't desirable there. If NIMBYs are the only problem, it should be noted that they exist at almost any location slated for development.

and I fear it will be a ghost line except at rush hour. (As the University line was for a couple of decades after it was built).

That depends on the length of DRL, and the quality of its surface feeder network.

If the eastern leg of DRL goes to Eglinton & Don Mills, then the line will have decent off-peak usage.

 

[Rainforest]

Yeah, it's not the same thing as Eglinton West LRT extension. Firstly, it's a much faster ride with much fewer stops, more regional in nature than local. Secondly, it continues onto downtown as you mention. So it's more attractive for someone living in Mississauga heading downtown for work. The Mississauga Busway also connects at ST, so Mississauga buses could feed into the line.

I am sure that Eglinton SmartTrack would have much higher ridership than Eglinton West LRT, because the former is much more appealing for transfers.

But it does not make Eglinton SmartTrack a good idea. Same riders can transfer to SmartTrack running on a different route. For example, it can continue in the Weston sub corridor to Etobicoke West station, and then take its own path south-west in the 401 corridor. All connections, to the north-south avenues in Etobicoke, and to Mississauga transit, will be in place.

The combined cost of sending SmartTrack on that route, plus building Eglinton West LRT at surface level, might be lower than the cost of building a mainline rail tunnel under Eglinton.

 

[smallspy]

The Tory Smarttrack proposal is an attempt to avoid the enormous cost of a DRL. In my view, that's a wise motive....a DRL is phenomenally costly and will drive development where it isn't desirable (ie in the Pape-Chester area), and I fear it will be a ghost line except at rush hour. (As the University line was for a couple of decades after it was built).

There's no avoiding a DRL - eventually something will be required to add more capacity to downtown from the inner suburbs.

As for driving development - it hasn't seemed to have made a lick of difference that the B-D has been in the area for the past 48 years, or the streetcars for 60+ years before that.

Both Smarttrack and a DRL are just "virtual" forms of added north south capacity in that they reroute Kennedy-Yonge/Bloor-Downtown traffic to a new route, theoretically leaving more seats on the Yonge line. Perhaps a better solution would just be to build a new north-south route and let it justify itself based on the Vaughan-North York-Toronto needs and leave Scarborough out of the discussion.

Huh? Another set of tracks into downtown, capable of handling 30K people per hour per direction, isn't real capacity?

And as for those supposed "seats on the Yonge Line", the Yonge Line has been operating above capacity for the past 10 or 15 years. There are a lot of people who would take the subway today if there was room for them to do so. The DRL would allow the room for them to board the trains, and bring improved transit to a wider swath of the City - and more importantly, to a location where the ridership numbers could actually justify it.

As for Scarborough, make the STC area more of a jobs zone, link it with downtown by some level of frequent RER that isn't built to a rush hour load capacity, and use the money you save to build transit and quality of life in Scarborough that don't add to downtown trips at all. That's cheaper all round.

Is it? They tried that in the early 1980s at Scarborough Town Centre, and look where it's gotten us. Companies won't move there if they don't want to be there.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[diminutive]

There's no avoiding a DRL - eventually something will be required to add more capacity to downtown from the inner suburbs.

That's just speculation. There's no teleological rule that the DRL is needed, unless you define DRL so broadly as to include virtually any new transit line downtown (RER as DRL)

Especially if the Yonge extension line doesn't go ahead, it's completely possible that no one on this thread will live to see a day when the DRL is "needed."

And as for those supposed "seats on the Yonge Line", the Yonge Line has been operating above capacity for the past 10 or 15 years. There are a lot of people who would take the subway today if there was room for them to do so. The DRL would allow the room for them to board the trains, and bring improved transit to a wider swath of the City - and more importantly, to a location where the ridership numbers could actually justify it.

This is inane. There are dozens of condos going up along the yonge line. The real estate market is literally investing billions for people to live close to the Yonge line. Nobody's behavior is changing because the AM peak is a little crowded. Can anyone point to a single person who isn't taking the subway due to nominal capacity shortages? At worst people may be rearranging their travel to avoid the AM peak, which is hardly a bad thing.

If people applied this logic to highways the 401 would be 64 lanes wide by now. It absolutely doesn't follow that peak capacity crunches automatically need multi billion dollar relief projects. Whatever capacity constraints do exist on Yonge could be far more easily be dealt with through demand management tools.

 

[drum118]

That's just speculation. There's no teleological rule that the DRL is needed, unless you define DRL so broadly as to include virtually any new transit line downtown (RER as DRL)

Especially if the Yonge extension line doesn't go ahead, it's completely possible that no one on this thread will live to see a day when the DRL is "needed."

This is inane. There are dozens of condos going up along the yonge line. The real estate market is literally investing billions for people to live close to the Yonge line. Nobody's behavior is changing because the AM peak is a little crowded. Can anyone point to a single person who isn't taking the subway due to nominal capacity shortages? At worst people may be rearranging their travel to avoid the AM peak, which is hardly a bad thing.

If people applied this logic to highways the 401 would be 64 lanes wide by now. It absolutely doesn't follow that peak capacity crunches automatically need multi billion dollar relief projects. Whatever capacity constraints do exist on Yonge could be far more easily be dealt with through demand management tools.

Not only do we need the DRL, but a new Yonge line by 2040 at the rate of development is taking place along Yonge St now as well what is on the books. One only has to walk, drive or ride TTC buses on Yonge St to see the changes taking place as well where future development will take place from the waterfront to the north city limits.

The new Yonge Line will be more of an express line with a different alignment south of St Clair.

The subway expansion will do very little the the east end and only has to look at what the current Danforth looks like after 48 years of service there. The plan LRT would do a lot more for the east side as well open up other expansion to better service both the 416 and 905.

The only place we can put people is to go up as out is gone now.

Management tools will not work on the Yonge line as the stations themselves are the problems. They are too small and lack exits/entrance to them. Places like Bloor, Dundas, King, Queen requires at least 4 exits/entrance to each platforms. 2 not going to cut it.

Should talk to condo owners who never look at the traffic at peak time for where they plan to buy one, only to be surprise how bad and hard it is to drive out of their building on their first day of work living there.

We have no more room to build roads or expand them when they shouldn't happen in the first place. What every driver is removed today by transit is only going to be replace by another driver within years of doing so.

 

[crs1026]

I agree that the number of riders in the north will justify a new transit line into downtown, sooner rather than later. I'm puzzled why the 'left turners' (Scarberians making the left turn at Yonge to go downtown) are the ridership body that are selected to justify a subway.One could make the case that the group to target is north-south riders who take a bus east-west and then transfer to the Yonge line. If you build a line down, say, Bayview, run it down Parliament before looping thru the western downtown, you make these riders' bus ride shorter and achieve the same seats into downtown. And you get YRT busses off Yonge St north of Finch, they can deliver to Bayview instead. Or something like that.

My comment about development refers to driving a subway along Pape/Chester, which will put a line of big buildings on a north-south line thru a residential area. Development on Danforth is fine, but Toronto needs to be very careful about preserving the character of the residential neigbourhoods in the old city of Toronto. Just look at Ossington, or, more recently, what's brewing along Bloor West Village.

- Paul

 

[WislaHD]

As someone who lives on Bayview... a subway here? haha that's a thought. How would that work, Sheppard&Bayview to Eglinton, a station between Davisville and Millwood, somehow navigating through the Brickworks (above ground even?) onto Castle Frank and Parliament, down Parliament and turning west in a Queen/King/Richmond/Adelaide tunnel to I say Spadina or Bathurst?

I wonder if that option is cheaper than traditional DRL alignments. I think it is less tunneling and easier tunneling along Bayview/Parliament and we won't have to cross the Don River twice. We could use that downtown tunnel for an extension to East York in the traditional DRL alignment one day too.

Maybe bus ridership can justify it a Bayview subway. The Spadina line already acts as a western Yonge Relief Line.

 

[ehlow]

As someone who lives on Bayview... a subway here? haha that's a thought. How would that work, Sheppard&Bayview to Eglinton, a station between Davisville and Millwood, somehow navigating through the Brickworks (above ground even?) onto Castle Frank and Parliament, down Parliament and turning west in a Queen/King/Richmond/Adelaide tunnel to I say Spadina or Bathurst?

I wonder if that option is cheaper than traditional DRL alignments. I think it is less tunneling and easier tunneling along Bayview/Parliament and we won't have to cross the Don River twice. We could use that downtown tunnel for an extension to East York in the traditional DRL alignment one day too.

Maybe bus ridership can justify it a Bayview subway. The Spadina line already acts as a western Yonge Relief Line.

I think I'd rather build one on Don Mills (traditional DRL route) since it has more high density areas & stuff along it, as well as redevelopment potential at places like Eg & Don Mills.

They should increase bus service on Bayview though.

 

[Rainforest]

DRL in the Don Mills corridor will have better ridership counts than a DRL running further west and closer to Yonge.

The "traditional" DRL route serves East Toronto and East York (not many stations, but they certainly add riders). It serves the Thorncliffe and Flemmington communities, both of them would have very poor access to a Bayview line. Further north, a Don Mills route gives the eastern bus riders more incentive to switch to DRL rather than stay on the bus till Yonge.

If DRL goes north as far as Sheppard and Finch, it will hit Fairview Mall and Seneca College if it utilizes the Don Mills corridor; there are no such trip generators in the vicinity of Bayview.

A DRL route closer to Yonge is less desirable, and should be considered only if it results in a very large cost saving.

 

[WislaHD]

Bayview does have the Glendon campus at Bayview&Lawrence, but I agree, the Don Mills corridor is much better with the Shops at Don Mills, Thorncliffe&Flemingdon Park, Fairview Mall, Seneca College and the ability for Sheppard East riders to transfer onto DRL without transfer.

What needs to be done east of Yonge is a direct bus route on Mt. Pleasant/Jarvis and Bayview to downtown.

Perhaps 44North's DRL alignment idea is what should be considered instead of the traditional DRL alignment:

What about changing the downtown alignment of this route to using Parliament instead though?