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Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

gweed123 said:
If the rail corridor is too narrow, elevate overtop of it instead of tunnelling underneath it. Up until just south of Sheppard, it's an industrial area anyway. In fact, I would recommend that the split itself be elevated, seeing as how the other branch will be continuing on an elevated guideway as well. And if both branches are on the same grade coming into the split, then that split can happen north of Ellesmere.
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Sounds interesting as well, but I am not sure if the Uxbridge Sub is already owned by Metrolinx, or still belongs to CN. If it is CN's, they might resist building anything on top of the track that complicates their maintenance. Plus, there will be clearance issues especially if the mainline is ever slated for electrification. The mainline voltage is many times higher (something like 15 or 25 kV) that the subway or LRT voltage (less than 1000 V). Higher voltage requires higher clearance.

If the elevated option is not doable, another possibility is to swing to Kennedy Avenue north of Ellesmere. The walk-in ridership certainly will be higher there, but so is the construction cost.
 
TrickyRicky said:
I think those who are pro LRT based on technical merit or cost are wasting their energy until we have LRT up and running in the city. People need real tangible evidence of how these systems will work in the GTA. Prior to that you will NEVER be able to convince people of their merit. Even pointing to other examples in other cities is not enough. Decisions are made based on FEELINGS not rational analysis.
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+1

Not to mention, the closest analogy we have to LRT within the GTA is our streetcar network with our current 34 year old streetcars. While the streetcar has its own merits, being rapid, reliable and able to carry large numbers of people over long distances are admittedly its weakest points.

In contrast, the Toronto subway is - network size aside - fast, frequent and spacious. If our subway system was like, say, Paris which is cramped, small, not particularly fast and has horrible interchange stations, we might have been more willing to embrace a new technology like LRT, which they did.
 
denfromoakvillemilton said:
Why not attach the STC/Centennial Branch to an Extended DRL? Loop it through to East York and Connect it with there.
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Not exactly sure what you mean here. It's unlikely the DRL will ever reach north of Eglinton, let alone into Scarborough.

Rainforest said:
Sounds interesting as well, but I am not sure if the Uxbridge Sub is already owned by Metrolinx, or still belongs to CN. If it is CN's, they might resist building anything on top of the track that complicates their maintenance. Plus, there will be clearance issues especially if the mainline is ever slated for electrification. The mainline voltage is many times higher (something like 15 or 25 kV) that the subway or LRT voltage (less than 1000 V). Higher voltage requires higher clearance.

If the elevated option is not doable, another possibility is to swing to Kennedy Avenue north of Ellesmere. The walk-in ridership certainly will be higher there, but so is the construction cost.
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Apparently the Uxbridge Sub (the Stouffville line) is indeed owned by Metrolinx, at least according to Wikipedia.That will certainly simplify things. As for the electrification thing, they may be able to kill two birds with one stone, and build the elevated guideway with the necessary infrastructure for electrification in place.

North of Sheppard I can see the elevated option being more controversial, because the line cuts through residential, but south of Sheppard it's all warehouse commercial and industrial.
 
Entire Uxbrige sub is owned by Metrolinx, all the way into uxbridge (despite the fact that Go doesn't run operations on that portion, it owns it for the future chance of running operations to Uxbridge, and the rails are maintained by YDHR)
 
Just a thought: if the S(L)RT isn't going to operate as part of the Sheppard or Eglinton lines, then why bother converting it? We could use that 1.4 billion to extend it right to Malvern and/or other investments. Here is an outline of my SRT Refresh project:

- Install more escalators at both Kennedy and Scarborough Centre stations.
- Purchase new trains for the line to allow for up to a 90 second frequency (possible since it is technically automated). These new trains can be the exact same Mark Is, modified Mark IIs which can operate on the line, or an entirely new design. If the latter, it is recommended that they look similar to the Toronto Rocket trains, for obvious reasons...
- Change the zoning around Kennedy and Ellesmere/Midland stations from low density industrial to mid to high density mixed use, to allow these stops to become destinations rather than pointless stops and transfer points. Also connect the two loops at Ellesmere to allow buses to connect to the RT while creating minimum delay to through service.
- "Roof" or "tube" the line to protect it from inclement weather conditions
- Connect the line to Sheppard via Centennial College, and if funds are available, extend to Malvern Town Centre. Future extensions or spurs to Markham, North York via the hydro corridor, and Pickering Airport will be explored at a future date.
 
if the pickering airport is ever built it will likely be served by a new GO line running on the Claremont / Peterborough line, not the TTC.
 
The idea of using the current SRT for a subway is a far superior idea to either an LRT conversion or a new subway.

A new subway route is a non-starter as there is no money and nor should Queen's Park fork over more money. I've always thought LRT was stupid for both Eglinton and SRT but seeing they went ahead with LRT for Eglinton then I thought LRT was OK but that was when the Eglinton-STC was just one line. When they divided it up the whole reason for an SRT to LRT logic was gone.

The other subway route would be fine but Toronto doesn't have the money so that discussion is already over. The other route would certainly be easier to build and wouldn't require any downtime on the current SRT but that is a moot point.............there is no money so there is no point talking about it. This new plan is better than the LRT conversion as it is one long route from Bloor as opposed to another transfer
 
TrickyRicky said:
I think those who are pro LRT based on technical merit or cost are wasting their energy until we have LRT up and running in the city. People need real tangible evidence of how these systems will work in the GTA. Prior to that you will NEVER be able to convince people of their merit. Even pointing to other examples in other cities is not enough. Decisions are made based on FEELINGS not rational analysis.
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I think people are more apathetic towards 'LRT' than decidedly hostile, at least for the on-street portions of LRT lines.

What's the travel speed on on-street portions? Finch West LRT is expected to be 23kph. Why would Torontonians get all excited for this? At best that would shave a few minutes off of their commute.

That's not to say LRT wouldn't have other advantages in terms of greater vehicle capacity, (presumably) lower operating costs per passenger, (presumably) more reliable headways and such. But at the end of the day it makes sense for the public to consider travel times above all.

"LRT" and "BRT" are both marketing terms, it would make sense that people don't exactly jump up and down the moment some politician tries to plaster it on anything. While lots of North American cities are building "LRT" systems with lots of public buy in and success, those systems look nothing like Finch West. Denver, Salt Lake City, Portland, Minneapolis and the like all look more like the C-train. Routes are radial, station spacing averages over 1km and running in mostly segregated ROWs outside of downtown.
 
innsertnamehere said:
it cuts the finch west bus travel time in half, actually, not "just a couple of minutes"
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The sad thing about the Sheppard East LRT is that if it weren't for Ford's (probably) illegal failed attempts at the cancellation of the project, it would be opening 4 days from now. Because of this idiot, I now have to spend at best an hour and 15 minutes commuting rather than closer to 45. This is*the effect that this wreckless populist mayor has had on actual Torontonians. Thanks for absolutely nothing Mr. Ford. Can't wait to see this guy hauled out of City Hall in the coming months.
 
diminutive said:
I think people are more apathetic towards 'LRT' than decidedly hostile, at least for the on-street portions of LRT lines.

What's the travel speed on on-street portions? Finch West LRT is expected to be 23kph. Why would Torontonians get all excited for this? At best that would shave a few minutes off of their commute.

That's not to say LRT wouldn't have other advantages in terms of greater vehicle capacity, (presumably) lower operating costs per passenger, (presumably) more reliable headways and such. But at the end of the day it makes sense for the public to consider travel times above all.

"LRT" and "BRT" are both marketing terms, it would make sense that people don't exactly jump up and down the moment some politician tries to plaster it on anything. While lots of North American cities are building "LRT" systems with lots of public buy in and success, those systems look nothing like Finch West. Denver, Salt Lake City, Portland, Minneapolis and the like all look more like the C-train. Routes are radial, station spacing averages over 1km and running in mostly segregated ROWs outside of downtown.
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Pretty much this. I was listening to an interview with Jennifer Keesmaat on CBC yesterday about transit planning, and she was so thrilled about how the frequent stops planned for Sheppard East are helping to spur development, and how there is a difference between local and regional transit.

Thing is, where does rapid transit fall into this matrix? Is it supposed to be local or regional? I've always thought it to be somewhere between the two, a form of compromise. While there are arguably some places where 400m makes sense, double that or more should be the target.

LRT should be something which resembles a subway, though with more flexable trains and operation. Toronto's LRT lines, and in fact much of the Big Move's lines, are forging a new category of transit for North America - something between a local bus and mid-speed rapid transit. While this is new in North America, this design is very common to European trams.

EDIT: Forgot to add that said tramways are usually designed to be part of the local network, not part of the rapid transit network.
 
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This map supplied by the Province includes no stop at Lawrence.

scarborough-subway-plan-global-news-murray-announcement.jpg


This one does.

I've seen some in the media call this a one stop extension, and others two. Murray is now saying that the amount of stations is flexible. Does the Province even know what they're doing with this line? It seems like they're just making it up as they go along.

Also it's amusing to see how this proposal misses all the highest density areas and priority neighbourhoods. But it's a subway in Scarborough and (apparently) that's all that matters. ;)
 
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