Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[nhui06]

The article reads like he could mean extra station within the 6.4km new route. I hope and assume that not what's meant but like all transit planning these days its seems that nothing is clear.

Yeah I get that feeling too. Maybe add the Ellesmere stop back, and maybe also McCowan/Bellamy (lots of condos on that side, and it probably wont' cost too much to cross over McCowan. Also opens up for an extension to Sheppard if the City/Feds provide more funding.

I know people hate the Ellesmere stop, but the reason why ridership is so low is because buses currently cannot drop passengers off, hence people actually have to walk around the bridge and down to the bottom to get on. If they actually redesign the area to let the 95 York Mills buses go down, then I am sure more riders will use the stop. 95 buses can get pretty packed.

 

[kEiThZ]

I don't think the transfer has has much to do with it as people not knowing what LRT on this route would really be like and the tendency of most people to favor subways.

Having grown up in Scarborough, I would argue that you are wrong about this.

There's a couple of sentiments. First, there's the grievance that Scarborough is second class because the rest of the city gets proper subways and we get the dinky SRT. The LRT effort rightly or wrongly feels a lot like that same deal again to many residents (not me). Next, on this specific corridor, the transfer matters. Given that most riders are shuttling between STC and Kennedy, the transfer is a major pain in the rear that people put up with everyday. The most common argument that you will hear from the average Scarborough rider in this corridor is, "Why don't they just extend the subway to STC?".

There's this grand idea that Scarborough residents have no clue what LRT is. And maybe some don't. But I guarantee you that the more informed would find LRT on this particular corridor equally distasteful. All that said, it's not an indictment of LRT. It's entirely appropriate for corridors like Sheppard and Eglinton.

 

[kEiThZ]

Would you support the LRT if there was no transfer.

That depends on what it does to my travel time.

Like I said, people ride transit. And they consider the tradeoff between transfers and travel time daily. Heck, there's a lot of days (especially if I've had a good night out and heading home inebriated) that I'll ride all the way up to Finch and bus across the city. One transfer only.

 

[W. K. Lis]

From the Star:

 

[kEiThZ]

Yeah I get that feeling too. Maybe add the Ellesmere stop back, and maybe also McCowan/Bellamy (lots of condos on that side, and it probably wont' cost too much to cross over McCowan. Also opens up for an extension to Sheppard if the City/Feds provide more funding.

I know people hate the Ellesmere stop, but the reason why ridership is so low is because buses currently cannot drop passengers off, hence people actually have to walk around the bridge and down to the bottom to get on. If they actually redesign the area to let the 95 York Mills buses go down, then I am sure more riders will use the stop. 95 buses can get pretty packed.

Who cares? Look at a map. See how far Ellesmere station is from STC. The stop really isn't necessary just to cater to 95 riders, especially when there is a massive terminus nearby. Just split the route at SC. The place where a stop actually might be justified is Brimley.

 

[Electrify]

I think the whole bus issue is a bit misleading. The projected end date for the RT is 2015. Maybe they can extend that for a year or 2, but the fact is that technology is too old and needs to be replaced. Had Transit City not been cancelled, maybe they could have gone without having to replace RTs with buses, but even if they did dig under McCowan instead of the current alignment, it will still take around 10 years to build (probably longer), hence the RT will be out of commission anyways.

Should note that the SRT can last as long as they want it to. The current trains are set to expire around 2015, but with maintenance and refurbishing they can last for decades longer.

 

[gweed123]

This is an interesting suggestion, it would improve connectivity. 1/2 the frequency would be sufficient for both branches.

There are two issues; not fatal, but significant. First, there is no extra space in the rail corridor between Progress and Sheppard. The Agincourt branch would have to go into a tunnel just north of Ellesmere; that increases the cost although the tunnel length will be less than 2 km. Second, the southbound tracks will have to merge somewhere south of Ellesmere; the southbound trains will likely have to come to a stop before the merge point, even though there will be no station.

Very valid points. Here's some alternatives: If the rail corridor is too narrow, elevate overtop of it instead of tunnelling underneath it. Up until just south of Sheppard, it's an industrial area anyway. In fact, I would recommend that the split itself be elevated, seeing as how the other branch will be continuing on an elevated guideway as well. And if both branches are on the same grade coming into the split, then that split can happen north of Ellesmere.

Will the short-turns be all day, or only in peak service? If it is peak service only, then the outlying areas will still get service every 4 minutes and the core every 2 minutes of so.
I do not see how it could be done all day. I imagine subway service must be at least every 5 or 6 minutes according to TTC policy, so the "core" portion of the line would see service every 3 minutes. I do not think you could extend the frequency beyond maybe 8 minutes.

I guess with branching, the off-peak service might be 8 minutes on the branches and 4 minutes on the "trunk". This give the branch barely acceptable service, while the "trunk" is overserved.

I also heard some talk about 2/3 of trains or even 3/4 of train short turning at Downsview. Is there any truth to that? If so few trains are needed beyond Downsview then why did we spend $350M/km on it?

I believe it will be all day, but don't quote me on that. Yes, branching does definitely cut the frequencies substantially, but in the case of Scarborough, if everything north of Sheppard is funnelled into Agincourt, and everything south of it but north or Lawrence is funnelled into STC, 4-5 mins during peak and ~8-10 mins outside of peak should be sufficient.

 

[M II A II R II K]

10 years for an extension that provides no extra coverage, and people will still have to sit through the whole Danforth Line until they get to Bloor/Yonge to transfer if they're going downtown.

 

[kEiThZ]

10 years for an extension that provides no extra coverage, and people will still have to sit through the whole Danforth Line until they get to Bloor/Yonge to transfer if they're going downtown.

The alternative was a marginal extension beyond STC and we'd still have to sit through many more stops on Eglinton. What's your point?

The only way to actually move people to the core efficiently would be by bolstering the GO network and making it true suburban rail. But that never even occurred to our genious transit planners and politicians who all thought that LRTs would cure all that ails "priority" areas.

The paper this morning said it would take 5 years to plan this extension. World War II was 6 years. Why does it take so long?

In WWII all the allies invested. When it comes to transit in Toronto, it's just Queen's Park. Even Torontonians themselves are too cheap to really pony up what's necessary.

 

[M II A II R II K]

That's precisely the point. All this dithering over crappy scrappy short extensions that are just feeder routes into an already crowded system.

 

[gweed123]

Rough map of what I was describing earlier. Credit to superman for the idea:

 

[Voltz]

Having grown up in Scarborough, I would argue that you are wrong about this.

There's a couple of sentiments. First, there's the grievance that Scarborough is second class because the rest of the city gets proper subways and we get the dinky SRT. The LRT effort rightly or wrongly feels a lot like that same deal again to many residents (not me). Next, on this specific corridor, the transfer matters. Given that most riders are shuttling between STC and Kennedy, the transfer is a major pain in the rear that people put up with everyday. The most common argument that you will hear from the average Scarborough rider in this corridor is, "Why don't they just extend the subway to STC?".

There's this grand idea that Scarborough residents have no clue what LRT is. And maybe some don't. But I guarantee you that the more informed would find LRT on this particular corridor equally distasteful. All that said, it's not an indictment of LRT. It's entirely appropriate for corridors like Sheppard and Eglinton.

I live in Scarborough and I always have. I'm constantly hearing hearing complaints about LRT that are factually incorrect such as not having enough capacity, it breaks down in the snow, it creates an impenetrable barrier to pedestrians, it's exactly like St Clair, its exactly like the SRT, parking will be lost, businesses will be inaccessible, It's more expensive than subways....

Comments such as "why don't they just extend the subway" also demonstrate the public's lack of transit knowledge in both Subways and LRT. If the planned LRT lines and other Big Move projects were already there then almost no one would be making comments like that.

 

[TrickyRicky]

I think those who are pro LRT based on technical merit or cost are wasting their energy until we have LRT up and running in the city. People need real tangible evidence of how these systems will work in the GTA. Prior to that you will NEVER be able to convince people of their merit. Even pointing to other examples in other cities is not enough. Decisions are made based on FEELINGS not rational analysis.

 

[Adjei]

I think those who are pro LRT based on technical merit or cost are wasting their energy until we have LRT up and running in the city. People need real tangible evidence of how these systems will work in the GTA. Prior to that you will NEVER be able to convince people of their merit. Even pointing to other examples in other cities is not enough. Decisions are made based on FEELINGS not rational analysis.

Exactly LRT is a toxic word in Toronto. No government wants to touch it.

 

[BurlOak]

If Metrolinx had only found a way originally to elevate the portion between Eglinton-Don Mills / Kennedy and to connect the SRT to the Eglinton line..... time machine?

http://news.nationalpost.com/2010/12/20/elevated-trains-metrolinx-offers-subway-alternative/

I remember when this came out at the end of 2010. I do not recall a single person or politician coming out against this.

Ms. Stintz said she expects to see a revised plan, with various options, by the end of January [2011].

I am still waiting for this elevated option to be compared to the others.