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Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

The TTC will almost certainly order specially-made (more expensive) cars to ensure that they remain the only Skytrain/ICTS operator in the world to have drivers on the completely automated system.

How true! If the TTC were smart, they would transfer those employees to bus operations, which is expanding. And that's if the ATU Local 113 decides not be be an stick in the ass for a change. Have a few roaming employees for safety and in case of emergency or technical problems (as Translink does). But as I said above, the union always gets what it wants.
 
Many automated systems, rather than eliminating the employee position they use it as an opportunity to get the driver out of the booth and moving among the passengers on the train. This allows for better customer service and safety and doesn't preempt the employee from the responsibility of closing the doors at stations (or from eating soup, I guess). The same idea is applied to collectors when fare collection is automated.

Maybe the TTC will do this....

yeah, right.
 
How about this - refit STC/McCowan for MkII and expand northeastward while refitting the STC MkI bit. Then (this could be the tricky bit) at Ellesmere branch north as well as the existing south branch and keep going to Sheppard. Turn left and tunnel until Don Mills, then regauge Sheppard and continue the line to Downsview, but possibly coming above ground/elevating at the earliest opportunity. Sheppard ends up with capacity more reflective of demand and the 4 car sets can be redeployed.
 
"Sheppard ends up with capacity more reflective of demand"

O ye of little faith, that's only reflective of the demand for the stubway from Yonge to Fairview, not STC to Downsview...
 
This just proves that it's total bull when the TTC says "Let's build a busway now to build traffic for a subway." York U vehemently opposed the busway because they knew that if it were built, it would stay that way for decades.

I should add that I have nothing against the RT's technology. Even the refurbishment plan isn't a truly terrible idea in theory, but it just makes more sense to build a subway line which will last forever, dramatically reduce travel times, increase capacity, not require separate maintenance facilities or separate trained operator and maintenance staff.

Here's the TTC's Report.
 
The problem is, is that it is mostly politics.

Creating an alternative to the subway "to build traffic" to justify building a subway (within the next 25 years) is backwards.

If you can operate the subway over the next 25 years (without considering the original capital investment) without causing financial hardship on the operating budget -- then the most logical solution would be to create a crown corporation now, and to have the crown corporation issue a 25 year bond and start the construction now (moving the subway/go systems under the crown corporation).

The cost to build that exact same line in 25 years is going to cost more in 25 years when you take into consideration:
- inflation (the inflation will be probably just less than the compounded interest over 25 years -- I am guessing probably close to 2.5 to 3 times the amount of the bond)
- cost of closing off busy streets to traffic while construction is happening.
- the land that is expropriated (at current market value -- pre-subway) for the subway stations -- could be used for higher density development with direct access to the subway (this would likely provide a source of some funding).

Based on some optimistic projections, Toronto could be home to 8 million people in 25 years -- if this happens -- and the transit is not upgraded to handle it -- it could be detrimental.
 
Great points, cacruden. Inflation has been something we are forgetting. For whatever reason, subway construction costs have been increasing way faster than consumer price inflation.
 
Steve Munro has a bunch of interesting in-depth postings on this topic, but I'm curious about one thing.

I notice as a regular reader that he often blames TTC staff for things such as meddling with the SRT report's final recommendations (since they don't follow from the report's conclusions) and forcing the "cattle car" subway seating issue for "security" reasons.

What I don't completely understand is: what interest would TTC staff (as opposed to say politicians) have in pushing a particular technology/configuration over another to the point of even "sabotaging" competing options? I have a hard time chalking it all up to ego and incompetence; it just seems unlikely to me--speaking as an engineer myself--that their engineers would consciously ignore certain technologies that may satisfy their technical requirements (e.g. LRT) without good reason.

Is it simply political pressure?
 
It's the exact opposite of political pressure. They're disagreeing with the politicians in all these cases, such as in their demand for "cattle car" seating, as it's been called.

It's simply a syndrome of any organization, where these engineers get a system in mind that they prefer, and then defend it to the end. They figure they're not backing down against some politician who "doesn't know what he's talking about."
 
Wonder where the money shall come from for this anyway.
 
It's simply a syndrome of any organization, where these engineers get a system in mind that they prefer, and then defend it to the end. They figure they're not backing down against some politician who "doesn't know what he's talking about."

Well, it helps that the engineers were right, too. The perimeter seating is more efficient, both for fitting more people and for moving around. That's why its nice that there are non-engineers to make the call to go with something less efficient, but more comfortable for the passengers.
 
From the Star:

Subway vs. surface
A plan to refurbish Scarborough RT and add streetcars running in their own right of way is visionary — but it will never happen
Sep. 25, 2006. 06:40 AM
KEVIN MCGRAN
STAFF REPORTER

There are two megaprojects on the TTC's agenda — the expansion of the Spadina subway line, and the refurbishment of the Scarborough RT coupled with the creation of a streetcar network throughout the eastern suburb.

The subway would be about 6 kilometres long and will cost at least $1.2 billion, although goodness knows what the final dollar figure will be. The Scarborough streetcar network would cover 100 kilometres, and cost about $1 billion.

Given the price tag, only one is likely to be completed. This city will build the wrong one.

All the political tea leaves tell us that the Spadina subway extension is a go. Toronto and York Region have worked out how they'll share their costs. The provincial Liberals like it, so they will have shovels in the ground prior to the next election.

And the federal Conservatives are mum on the issue only because it doesn't make any political sense to fund it now. Instead, they'll make a big splash — they'll "discover" the urban agenda — sometime in spring.

If they choose not to, the financially flush provincial Liberals go it alone, making political hay for their federal counterparts by saying Conservatives don't care about the Greater Toronto Region.

The subway has some merit. It will relieve some pressure on the Yonge St. line, which is so overcrowded in mornings, patrons get left behind. A Vaughan stop has the ability to become the transportation hub for an area that is close to being the geographic centre of the GTA.

But truly, development is too sparse there. The money may be seen as a good investment in 50 years, but the money is better spent now on a risky plan endorsed by most of Scarborough's councillors.

They — very bravely before a municipal election — have abandoned the idea of extending the Bloor-Danforth subway line to the Scarborough Town Centre. Instead, Scarborough will retain its SRT.It would be too devastating to the community to lose four stops. A subway would have only two stops.

But as part of the deal to refurbish the RT, the Scarborough politicians want streetcars running in their own right of way down the major streets and avenues, connecting the farthest reaches of the suburb to the RT, the various GO stations and the subway.

It's an ambitious plan, even visionary, built on the notion that you can build 100 kilometres of surface rapid transit for the same price as 1 kilometre of subway. You can build it faster and do more good for more people.

It would accommodate the city's Official Plan by offering transit priority. It would revive moribund neighbourhoods. It would link Toronto public transit with Markham and Pickering, crossing two borders.

It would serve as a model for the rest of the GTA.

But it will never happen. Politicians around these parts are in love with subways. They think subway building equals votes. Voters even buy that.

So, while councillors in Vaughan and northern Toronto are sure to campaign, and maybe even win, on being able to deliver a subway, councillors in Scarborough may be fighting for their political lives for doing the right thing.

AoD
 
Because they build subways to anticipate demand and encourage high-density development around subway lines rather than struggling to serve areas that have been designed around road infrastructure.
Vaughan has every intention of building their centre around road infrastrure, subway or not. The entire central part of Toronto was built as a transit-oriented area before there was ever a subway. The east and west parts of downtown are extremely dense but they lack subways, and there's no plans for subways there yet those areas keep getting denser. My point is that it doesn't take subways to develop urban, transit friendly communities. Europeans don't concentrate their subways in the middle of nowhere, they build systems that focus on the centres of their cities. Any European city with subways at the edge also has a pretty complete inner city subway network. That's what Toronto lacks.
 

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