Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[datamouse]

If the new preliminary ridership study says that the subway would get 14k peak riders then what would the new numbers be with LRT? Of course this wasn't studied but would it be close to 14k? The chief planner said that the SRT route has more development potential so what if the new numbers did reach near 14K? The capacity of the LRT would be at 16K so this should be a hugely important question as it would pretty much kill the LRT argument.

 

[freshcutgrass]

I'd like to see the TTC broken up, with the subway and LRT network run by Metrolinx, in conjunction with GO and the buses and streetcars left to the TTC.

So in other words, you want to take the few things the TTC does exceedingly well, and ruin it.

The feeder network demands the largest subsidy and service is largely determined by local ratepayers. The subway network is more capital intensive and will usually require provincial investment. It's time to put the chickens in the proper pots.

Take away the subways from the TTC and the delicate operational house of cards collapses.

The City of Toronto is the only jurisdiction in Ontario that stands a chance in hell of making public transit work.

Let the suburbs deal with their own transit mess. Otherwise they will just drag Toronto down with them.

I don't really care which level of government that I gave my tax dollars to funds Toronto's transit, as long as it is a separate entity to any other municipality.

 

[RC8]

When I lived in Mississauga everyone wished their transit system be amalgamated with the TTC. People refused to understand the deeper reasons why taking the TTC was relatively convenient but taking Mississauga Transit was hellish.

I have no doubt in my mind that by further amalgamating anything with other municipalities we would just be making everything significantly worse for Torontonians.

 

[Rainforest]

When I lived in Mississauga everyone wished their transit system be amalgamated with the TTC. People refused to understand the deeper reasons why taking the TTC was relatively convenient but taking Mississauga Transit was hellish.

I have no doubt in my mind that by further amalgamating anything with other municipalities we would just be making everything significantly worse for Torontonians.

That's probably true (unfortunately). In the amalgamated system, there will be a strong pressure to maintain decent level of service in the lower-density areas, at the expense of more overcrowding in the denser areas, and/or higher fares for everyone.

I would like to mitigate the cross-boundary issue, in particular, stop charging double fares for short trips across the 416 / 905 borders. But I would not go for full amalgamation.

 

[freshcutgrass]

I have no doubt in my mind that by further amalgamating anything with other municipalities we would just be making everything significantly worse for Torontonians.

Well, it's just common sense. At least in Toronto, enough of the built environment can support proper transit.

Figure out what 905ers would have to put in the farebox to match the level of the TTC's tax subsidy per ride. Then figure it out by matching the TTC's level of service.

Every time you add a route that loses money, it brings down the overall operational budgets ability to supply the service over the entire system. You either have to increase tax funding, or increase user fees (fares). Increasing fares brings down ridership.

Add revenue-neutral or positive cash flow routes, and it has the opposite effect. People may hate streetcars, but they have a positive cash flow that pays for better service in subsidized routes.

Let the 905 rot.

 

[Rainforest]

If the subway option gains the requested funding and goes through, the Sheppard LRT will likely become more useful than in the previous scheme.

The ability to transfer directly to subway (rather than first to SLRT and then once again to subway) should attract more riders to Sheppard LRT.

Furthermore, the new connection point at Sheppard & McCowan is better than the previous one at Sheppard & Progress. The McCowan connection is convenient for riders coming from both east and west. The Progress connection would be good for riders coming form the east, but involved a significant backtracking for anyone coming from the west.

The peak ridership of Sheppard LRT (approaching Don Mills) may be lower in the new scheme, as many riders will be diverted to Danforth subway. But the total boardings of Sheppard LRT are likely to go up significantly.

Cancelling Sheppard LRT would be a bad idea as it would deprive the Danforth subway extension of a major feeder route.

 

[Electrify]

Are there any time constraints with this plan? So if the province and feds don't commit within the next whenever, it reverts back to the original alignment?

 

[drum118]

Are there any time constraints with this plan? So if the province and feds don't commit within the next whenever, it reverts back to the original alignment?

If they don't comment by September this year, it back to the original plan. Look for some fast tracking for the LRT if the subway dies in Sept. Work will start in 2014, starting south from Sheppard. Doing this will allow a faster delivery time that the line maybe up and running before 2020, more like 2018.

Since there is no funding or staff to start the EA for the subway, it will be on the agenda next week to start the ball rolling and then go back to council in Oct for some money with more in the 2014 budget.

If things proceed for the subway, expect a quick and fast EA by the summer of 2014 so it can be approved before the 2014 election. I wouldn't hold my breath for this EA.

 

[GenerationW]

Are there any time constraints with this plan? So if the province and feds don't commit within the next whenever, it reverts back to the original alignment?

In theory Sept. 30 according to the motion, in reality who really knows.

 

[datamouse]

Steve Munro is convinced that no money will be coming from province or feds. I don't know. Provincially the Libs are in a tight spot if they want to win not only the by-election but also seats whenever we go to a general election. Then again I don't understand why the $400m needed to be transferred from the SRT to the Crosstown anyways. If the money is supposed to be spent on Kennedy Station anyways then I can't believe they'd quibble over that. I'd say the real wildcard is the feds - money might come but I don't know how fast they'd work.

 

[BurlOak]

Steve Munro is convinced that no money will be coming from province or feds. I don't know. Provincially the Libs are in a tight spot if they want to win not only the by-election but also seats whenever we go to a general election. Then again I don't understand why the $400m needed to be transferred from the SRT to the Crosstown anyways. If the money is supposed to be spent on Kennedy Station anyways then I can't believe they'd quibble over that. I'd say the real wildcard is the feds - money might come but I don't know how fast they'd work.

Is there not a very complex underground loop for the new SRT-LRT with an underground, non revenue connection to the ECLRT. Also, the SRT has a separate underground station from the ECLRT. $400M does seem high since it hasn't been spent, but it does appear that the SRT portion of the Kennedy station is more complex than the ECLRT portion. Does this mean that there would be close to $400M savings if the SRT was continuous with the ECLRT - i.e. only one station (at ECLRT level), no underground loop, no underground loop, etc.)?

 

[BurlOak]

Now having said that, here's what I would like to see happen:

Someone propose a motion that instead of extending the subway, Metrolinx study elevating Eglinton East and running the SLRT seamlessly with the ECLRT, thereby accomplishing the same goal the subway is intended to accomplish. Use the new found willingness to raise taxes to pay for transit to get a few hundred million extra to elevate the line.

Of course, that has about as much chance of happening as a solid funding scheme for the DRL materializing tomorrow... Or of Rob Ford standing up in the Council chambers and admitting he smoked crack. Take your pick.

That is the best choice.

Maybe you (we) could write our politicians and suggest this option. I am not sure if would be one of the more intelligent City Councillors (there are quite few of them), a Provincial MPP or Transportation Minister or the Federal Government.

I imagine many of the "losing" Councillors, and some of the reluctant "winning" ones would like this because it is less money and it achieves the smae goals (and more) than the subway extension. The province should like it for the same reasons, plus it still counts as providing a "subway" to Scarborough - a 7 stop one. It would also be a similar route to the current one so it could be complete with minor EA changes, thus being on time and less of the already completed design work would be wasted (i.e. more of that $1.8B would be available). The Feds are usually more hands off, so I do not expect them dictate a form of transit for Toronto, but it still may help if Toronto is seeking less money than with the subway plan.

 

[Tulse]

If they don't comment by September this year, it back to the original plan.

One might think that, but recall that the subway decision came after a signed contract with the province and agreement with the feds. If the "deadline" passes, I wouldn't put it past this mayor and council to simply whine some more and make more nonsensical decisions, rather than revert to the prior plan.

 

[rbt]

If the new preliminary ridership study says that the subway would get 14k peak riders then what would the new numbers be with LRT? Of course this wasn't studied but would it be close to 14k? The chief planner said that the SRT route has more development potential so what if the new numbers did reach near 14K? The capacity of the LRT would be at 16K so this should be a hugely important question as it would pretty much kill the LRT argument.

Development potential doesn't mean a whole lot as it rarely actually occurs. Existing stations like Vic Park and Warden have as much development potential as any other location; but it's been 30 years and very little development has actually occurred.

Sheppard condos, also developing slower than expected, get about the same ridership split as the old neighbourhoods did (also unexpected). Most residents drive to their destination.

Development is almost always over-estimated for the suburbs EXCEPT for the Yonge line, and that's the result of Mel Lastman working hard for 30 years to build up the North York Center.

If the LRT hit capacity, a few relatively small adjustments to the stations in 2050 and you can run 5 car trains; boosting capacity by 60%. Pain in the ass but it can be done.

Of course, we could increase coverage area by building a 2nd and 3rd LRT line through Scarborough with significantly increased coverage area.

Bringing GO up to 5 minute frequencies and treating those stations as hubs would also significantly alter travel patterns within Scarborough.

 

[vic]

What happens to the existing SRT corridor?

So if this subway plan actually goes ahead, what happens to the existing SRT corridor? Can anything useful be done with it? Worth preserving as a future transit corridor (with all that talk of density and development potential along the route)?

Fully grade-separated bikeway?