Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

Hopkins123 · Dec 15, 2019

Rainforest said:
Some people fail to understand that the subway extension will serve multiple purposes.

Elimination of the double transfer, bus to RT to subway: check. That will save 8-10 min each way for riders who end up on the subway anyway.

Shorter bus rides from the eastern part on Lawrence East: check. That includes Cedarbrae, but not just that location. Buses from the north don't need to cross the often-congested 401 over/underpasses, because they can connect to the Sheppard terminus: check. Potential for more density at the Sheppard terminus: check.

The 3-stop version of the subway extension will produce a better bang for the buck. I wouldn't mind the 1-stop version, as it still cuts many transfers, and would bring a closure to this lingering project. But if the current government is willing to pay for the 3-stop version, that's preferable.

Rexdale will not be getting a subway, because it is reasonably close to the TYSSE Finch West and Pioneer Village stations. Finch LRT and Steeles West bus will provide a good connection to those subway stations. If the Spadina subway only went to Eglinton West, and then a separate orphan line was running from there further north, then one could make a case for the subway extension once the said orphan line comes due for rebuild.

SSE will do for the eastern half of Scarborough what TYSSE is already doing for Rexdale.

Nevermind that the 927 Highway 27 Rocket can already get people from Rexdale Blvd/Woodine Centre to the Bloor-Danforth in a mere 15 minutes. Rexdale Boulevard is roughly the same distance away from Bloor-Danforth as Sheppard Avenue. People at Sheppard and McCowan today cannot get to Main and Danforth in 15 minutes, or even 20. With the subway they can reasonably enough. That's the transformative improvement to commuter trips times the SSE is affording the masses and why it must proceed forward in earnest.

syn · Dec 15, 2019

Hopkins123 said:
Nevermind that the 927 Highway 27 Rocket can already get people from Rexdale Blvd/Woodine Centre to the Bloor-Danforth in a mere 15 minutes. Rexdale Boulevard is roughly the same distance away from Bloor-Danforth as Sheppard Avenue. People at Sheppard and McCowan today cannot get to Main and Danforth in 15 minutes, or even 20. With the subway they can reasonably enough. That's the transformative improvement to commuter trips times the SSE is affording the masses and why it must proceed forward in earnest.

That's a rather misleading comparison, unless everyone's final destination is Kipling.

The 927 leaving now (7:30pm on a Sunday) is 25 minutes. A trip to Bloor Yonge is 58 minutes total.

A trip from Sheppard and McCowan to Bloor-Yonge is 53 minutes.

At 7:30am on a Monday morning the Woodbine trip is 5 minutes slower. If you were to be traveling from Kipling, it's another 5 minutes slower (about an hour and 10 minutes). In Scarborough it's faster, and there's also an express bus from Sheppard & McCowan that goes straight to Finch (but a longer ride).

If anything, a full fledged DRL will do more for Scarborough travel times downtown than a 3 stop extension ever will. Perhaps sensible transit expansion in Scarborough should include increased express bus service and a more comprehensive rapid transit network.

Rainforest · Dec 16, 2019

Woodbine is located on the western edge of Toronto, and hence cannot be a major hub for feeder buses. Residents living north of Woodbine, can take the Finch or Steeles routes to the TYSSE stations.

While Woodbine could benefit from better transit, it does not need a subway anytime soon.

On the other hand, Sheppard & McCowan will become a major hub for feeder buses. That terminus will be 4 km south of Steeles, and 5-6 km west of the eastern border of 416. A large number of routes serving north and north-east of Scrborough will connect to the Sheppard & McCowan terminus. That's why a subway to Sheppard & McCowan is desirable.

DRL and SSE will have about equal impact on reducing the travel times from Scarborough to downtown. If both are built, that's double the effect.

Midtown Urbanist · Dec 16, 2019

So how much would the Scarborough Subway cost in Hamilton dollars?

Rainforest · Dec 16, 2019

WislaHD said:
So how much would the Scarborough Subway cost in Hamilton dollars?

Substantially more than according to any previously used metrics.

And yet, decidedly less than the Ontario line, and probably a bit less than Yonge North.

denfromoakvillemilton · Dec 16, 2019

Rainforest said:
Substantially more than according to any previously used metrics.

And yet, decidedly less than the Ontario line, and probably a bit less than Yonge North.

All of these can be cancled at anytime. They've spent zero money on them.

Streety McCarface · Dec 17, 2019

WislaHD said:
So how much would the Scarborough Subway cost in Hamilton dollars?

Probably 13 billion dollars, 5-7B for capital costs, 3.5B for 30-year operation, 1.5B for new rolling stock on Line 2, and 1-2 billion to resignal Line 2.

Interestingly, it'd still be a better value for money than Hamilton LRT (assuming the BS metrics used for both projects are accurate). The SSE will directly serve at least 90K PPD (probably higher, closer to 110K PPD, especially once the crosstown opens) on opening day. That's 145M per thousand riders. Compared to the 30K that are projected to use the Hamilton LRT on opening day, at a cost of 5.5B, that's a cost of 180M per thousand riders. All the while, the rolling stock and ATC upgrades to Line 2 will dramatically improve the commutes of the 530K people that use Line 2 daily.

I don't think Ford's numbers add up, but he brings up a good point — The capital costs aren't everything, and often, privatized, one-off LRT lines are more expensive to operate than the existing subway system. Look at Hurontario — operation costs are 100M per year for 30 years (on average without inflation). The crosstown is half underground, a bit longer, will see twice the number of passengers and is costing 80M to operate (partially because it'll be heavily integrated with the TTC). This is, by no means, an argument for not building Light Rail in Hamilton. The point is that it's cheaper to build off of already established organizations.

Subways are expensive to build, yes, but aside from tunnel infrastructure (which are usually accounted for by higher ridership levels), operation costs are the same. A 2-vehicle Citadis train is almost 100m. It uses almost the same amount of electricity as a TTC subway train since, even though the subway is 50% larger, the LRT travels slower, stops redundantly at lights, and has stops spaced closer together (under the same operating conditions, the LRV would likely use less electricity simply because it's smaller, but it still uses more electricity per unit area than a subway train because it's heavier).

syn · Dec 17, 2019

WislaHD said:
So how much would the Scarborough Subway cost in Hamilton dollars?

What does that matter? The people of Scarborough deserve to be indoors and not be in the cold. It never gets cold or rains in Hamilton so that doesn't matter. It's not possible for them to be 2nd class citizens.

H4F33Z · Dec 17, 2019

The Hamilton LRT being cancelled makes me believe that the Scarborough Subway won't be funded or delayed by the Ford government.

Rainforest · Dec 18, 2019

denfromoakvillemilton said:
All of these can be cancled at anytime. They've spent zero money on them.

Well they have spent some money on design, and the soil testing.

But, sadly, that doesn't preclude any cancellations. They still can cancel, and write off the sunk costs. Nothing is secure until it reached an advanced state of construction.

Allandale25 · Dec 27, 2019

H4F33Z said:
The Hamilton LRT being cancelled makes me believe that the Scarborough Subway won't be funded or delayed by the Ford government.

There has already been a slight delay by the Ford gov because they insisted on the three stop option. I think what may happen is they may look for ways to control costs and look at surface/above ground options. I posted about this several pages back.