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Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

Douggie is far from stupid, but he and his crowd are intellectually lazy. These are the guys who said they could eliminate the deficit by “finding efficiencies”. It’s easy to say stuff like that when you don’t care to know what things cost or how much you need.
Sometimes we give people too much credit. I really think this isn’t a conspiracy, but simply a screw up. He spent his first year in office saying stuff without understanding the facts.., but finally somebody said, “No really, it will cost this much, there’s no economies to be had”. And now he’s between a rock and a hard place. It’s a “Doh” moment.
I can’t imagine that he could walk back the commitment to build this thing, but he will try his hardest to look for a sulver bullet. All he really needs is to be able to say he found a cheaper way - even if that’s an illusion.
- Paul
First of all you are giving a lot of benefit of the doubt when the whole time he was promising transit during the election people everywhere was either saying their is no money to pay for these things and or asking him how he's going to pay for it. Also you say that Doug is far from stupid. What is your definition of stupid. The man didn't make it through university. He ran deco into the ground. What exactly has he done to make you think that he isn't actually stupid. I'm sorry to say it but I think anyone who thinks their is any credibility in anything a Ford says is stupid.
 
Sometimes we give people too much credit. I really think this isn’t a conspiracy, but simply a screw up. He spent his first year in office saying stuff without understanding the facts.., but finally somebody said, “No really, it will cost this much, there’s no economies to be had”. And now he’s between a rock and a hard place. It’s a “Doh” moment.

I think you're right, but this is closer to year 8 for the Fords on the Scarborough Subway project than year 1. I'd personally like my leaders to realize poor decisions earlier than 8 years in on them.
 
I don't see it that way. The rt needs to be replaced. We have a few options. The lrt. New rt trains. Or the subway. That's three options. I really hope were not going to spend years of studying to make a couple more options. We have enough options and we've done enough studying. I'd like to build and get this Scarborough charade over with. That way we can actually get on to real transit priorities which have somehow become second fiddle in all this nonsense.

See that's the problem. A one stop solution won't lead to consideration of other transit priorities. It'll just be another cycle of complaining. "Where did the RT stops go?" "Why do we only get one stop?"

I'd rather see them implement a proper solution. If the LRT that was planned was running now I'm sure the general population in Scarborough would be quite happy.
 
See that's the problem. A one stop solution won't lead to consideration of other transit priorities. It'll just be another cycle of complaining. "Where did the RT stops go?" "Why do we only get one stop?"

I'd rather see them implement a proper solution. If the LRT that was planned was running now I'm sure the general population in Scarborough would be quite happy.
I just don't see us reverting to lrt. I'd be happy if I was wrong. But since I don't then I'd just like this thing built sooner than later with only a certain amount of dedicated money. If that means we only get one stop so be it. maybe this whole thing will keep getting delayed and the thing will crumble and at that point people will just take any conversion. Maybe.
 
And if delayed just turns to quit cancelled will you still not be mad at all?
I don’t see any real possibility of that, do you?

Unlike Rob Ford at City Hall, Doug Ford has many funding tools at his disposal to bulldoze this through. He is too politically invested in this particular project.

More likely, the project will be delayed. By how much who knows. All that I know is that I’m glad that one stop alignment isn’t happening. What a foolish plan.
 
I don’t see any real possibility of that, do you?

Unlike Rob Ford at City Hall, Doug Ford has many funding tools at his disposal to bulldoze this through. He is too politically invested in this particular project.

More likely, the project will be delayed. By how much who knows. All that I know is that I’m glad that one stop alignment isn’t happening. What a foolish plan.
I don't think you can assume Doug wants to do anything other than keep taxes low. The easiest way to do that is to do nothing but make promises, claim they need more studies and delay delay delay. A subway might happen. A lrt might happen. But my guess is nothing will happen as long as Doug is premier. Whoever is next will have to fix this mess. Taxes will go up. And people will then hate that person. That same prediction is true for both the Ontario line and the yonge line.
 
See that's the problem. A one stop solution won't lead to consideration of other transit priorities. It'll just be another cycle of complaining. "Where did the RT stops go?" "Why do we only get one stop?"

I'd rather see them implement a proper solution. If the LRT that was planned was running now I'm sure the general population in Scarborough would be quite happy.
If the LRT was running now, I'm sure the general population in Scarborough would be saying that we spent $2B and we have the same thing they had before. I don't think they were that happy before.
 
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If the LRT was running now, I'm sure the general population in Scarborough would be saying that we spent $2B and we have the same thing they had before. I don't think they were that happy before.
Except it could be extended fairly cheaply and it wouldn’t be break down. Also Scarborough always felt they were the ones with inferior tech so they complained about it. But with eglinton and finch getting built they would have to accept subways simply don’t go everywhere. Plus the money left over would be available to build eglinton east. The big problem with the conversion was the number of years people would have to take shuttle buses during its construction and then there was problems with it interfering with smarttrack. Does that even exist anymore. Good thing the conservatives are so much better at building transit.
 
If the LRT was running now, I'm sure the general population in Scarborough would be saying that we spent $2B and we have the same thing they had before. I don't think they were that happy before.


Wouldnt be shocked to see the bus terminal moved to Sheppard and it will be interesting to see the recommendation for the Lawrence and Brimley stops. The Cons are milking things politically here but certainly doing the right things

Cant say the same for the past Liberals or City Council over the past decade.
 
Wouldnt be shocked to see the bus terminal moved to Sheppard and it will be interesting to see the recommendation for the Lawrence and Brimley stops. The Cons are milking things politically here but certainly doing the right things

Cant say the same for the past Liberals or City Council over the past decade.
Contrary to this comment. The liberals did manage even if far to slow in my opinion get both the finch and Eglinton lrt started. I have many doubts anything will start under this government.
 
Wouldnt be shocked to see the bus terminal moved to Sheppard and it will be interesting to see the recommendation for the Lawrence and Brimley stops. The Cons are milking things politically here but certainly doing the right things

Cant say the same for the past Liberals or City Council over the past decade.
Stop making excuses man. This is a delay. Again.

But Metrolinx says otherwise
Metrolinx CEO dismisses concerns subway panel review will lead to delays
The head of the Ontario government’s regional transit agency says its move to put two Toronto-area subway projects under review is “business as usual,” rejecting concerns it could lead to construction delays.

In an interview Tuesday, Phil Verster, president and CEO of Metrolinx, said his agency appointing an expert panel to examine alternatives to current designs for the Scarborough and Yonge North subway extensions was standard practice for large transit projects.

Verster said the goal of the panel is to determine “the most innovative way to achieve schedule and budget” for the extensions, and his agency is determined to avoid any holdups in expanding the region’s transit network.

“This is not anything else but the prudent and urgent clarification of scope to make sure we can get on and deliver as quickly as possible,” he said.

Metrolinx is the provincial Crown corporation in charge of transportation planning in the GTHA. The two subway projects are key elements of the $28.5-billion transit plan the Ontario Progressive Conservative government unveiled in April.

As the Star revealed Tuesday, Metrolinx and Infrastructure Ontario have convened a 13-member panel made up primarily of private sector experts “to perform an independent review of TTC plans” for the two multibillion-dollar subway projects.

According to a confidential document outlining its mandate, the panel may “evaluate potential alternatives” to existing designs, including the possibility of adding or removing stations, building portions of the lines above ground, or changing their routes.

News of the review prompted concern from critics at Queen’s Park and city hall, who warned changing plans at this stage will only set back construction.

In a statement, Ontario NDP deputy leader Sara Singh called the panel “a recipe for delays.”

“It will mean commuters will be waiting longer on packed subway platforms, and at bus stops, for long-overdue transit improvements in Toronto and the GTA,” she said.

The prospect that the review panel could consider building a portion of the Scarborough extension above ground raised the possibility the provincial government could revert to a plan similar to the surface Scarborough LRT council voted down in 2013, which would have run along the corridor of the existing Scarborough RT.

Verster insisted that wasn’t the case.

He said the new Scarborough project “will be an extension of (the TTC’s Line 2 subway), and it would be integrated into the TTC operations.”

Aside from that, Verster suggested his agency isn’t married to any specific aspect of the Yonge North and Scarborough projects, which the TTC has been planning for years.

“Anything that gives us opportunity to deliver the schedule faster and get the benefits to customers quicker, and to achieve the budget more securely, will be considered and will be part of proposals that will go back to the Region of York and the City of Toronto,” he said.

Verster refused to say how much the review panel will cost, but confirmed its members, which include senior officials from an engineering consultancy and a commercial real estate firm, will be paid.

At a press conference with Prime Minister Justin Trudeau at city hall Tuesday morning, Mayor John Tory said he could support the review if it means transit is built faster.

“If this committee is designed to report quickly, and to find a better, cheaper or faster way to build any transit, then I’m quite willing to see that exercise undertaken and won’t criticize it,” he said.

“But I would certainly want to know more about the time frame of the examination and then depending on what the recommendations are, whether that in turn would have any impact to delay these projects further.”

The Scarborough project has already been delayed.

According to TTC staff, planning for the one-stop version of the project that council approved in 2016 has advanced to a stage where it’s ready to be sent for procurement. It was set to be complete by the end of 2026.

But in June, the province passed legislation enabling the province to take over new transit projects from the city, and Premier Doug Ford’s government is pursuing a three-stop version of the subway instead.

The government’s initial estimate, based on little design work, is that the three-stop subway would open before 2030.

The province estimates the Scarborough project would cost $5.5 billion. The Yonge North extension to Richmond Hill in York Region would cost $5.6 billion and open after 2027.

Trudeau, whose government has earmarked up to $4.9 billion for Toronto transit projects, told reporters the province’s plans “need to be further refined” before Ottawa can make firm funding commitments.

“Unfortunately every time the province changes a project, they do have to redesign and redo the concrete business plan and the actual plan before we can commit federal dollars to that. I’m glad to hear that they are doing that work, and we look forward to moving forward in the investments that are going to make a big difference in the lives of Torontonians,” he said.
 
The real question is when Trudeau wins because of the PC connection with Ford does the PCs win provincial again when election time is up. And if the liberals win again are we really going back to lrt.
 
The real question is when Trudeau wins because of the PC connection with Ford does the PCs win provincial again when election time is up. And if the liberals win again are we really going back to lrt.
That may happen before then...
When Premier Doug Ford unveiled his government’s massive transit plan last April, it included extensions for two subway lines and made no mention of new light rail projects.

But a new expert panel created by the province to go over the details the nearly $30-billion transit plan doesn’t rule out building new rail lines above ground.

The Ontario government wants to extend the Yonge Line north to Richmond Hill and scrap the City of Toronto’s plans for a one-stop subway extension to Scarborough Town Centre in favour of one that goes farther and includes two more stops.

In July, the government issued a report to convene a panel of experts to go over the details of the transit plan. Included in that mandate is considering vertical or horizontal alignments of future rail projects.

The head of Metrolinx, which oversees transit planning for the province in the Greater Toronto Area, said talk of rail configuration at this stage is simply “business as usual.”

Phil Verster said it was simply part of making sure the project could be delivered on time with the correct scope.

But during the provincial election and his time on Toronto city council, Ford repeatedly signaled his preference of subways over LRT — which is why even the remote possibility of considering future LRT projects is raising eyebrows.

Still, Scarborough Coun. Michael Thompson said he wasn’t concerned and thinks the review should be expected.

Thompson did reiterate the desire of his constituents to see subways built as one reason to remain confident it would get done.

“The subway has been the preference I have actually fought a municipal election on that as part of my platform,” he said.

“So I think it is something that people do want.”

While Thompson wouldn’t comment on what would happen if the panel recommended a LRT would be best for Scarborough, he said the project needs to be delivered on time.

That’s a view echoed by Toronto’s mayor John Tory.

“If these experts look at this and find a way to do it less expensively or quicker, I’m all ears,” said Tory.

“But it has to be done very quickly because we’ve got to get on with building the transit.”

The panel’s review is scheduled to be completed by the end of September with its findings to be presented to the City and TTC soon after.
 
I don’t see any real possibility of that, do you?

Unlike Rob Ford at City Hall, Doug Ford has many funding tools at his disposal to bulldoze this through. He is too politically invested in this particular project.

More likely, the project will be delayed. By how much who knows. All that I know is that I’m glad that one stop alignment isn’t happening. What a foolish plan.
I don't think you can assume Doug wants to do anything other than keep taxes low. The easiest way to do that is to do nothing but make promises, claim they need more studies and delay delay delay. A subway might happen. A lrt might happen. But my guess is nothing will happen as long as Doug is premier. Whoever is next will have to fix this mess. Taxes will go up. And people will then hate that person. That same prediction is true for both the Ontario line and the yonge line.

I think a lot of people mistake Ford being anti-LRT as a pro-transit position. The guy probably just really hates LRTs taking up car lanes
 
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If the LRT was running now, I'm sure the general population in Scarborough would be saying that we spent $2B and we have the same thing they had before. I don't think they were that happy before.

Except it wouldn't be the same thing. That would be quite obvious.

The Ford Kool-Aid only goes so far once reality is staring you in the face, for most people anyways.
 

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