syn
Senior Member
I completely agree.
My mind went to worst case scenario (eliminating a needed bus terminal). Figured it's not an unreasonable assumption with this government.
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I completely agree.
My mind went to worst case scenario (eliminating a needed bus terminal). Figured it's not an unreasonable assumption with this government.
sixrings
Senior Member
Just build the one stop subway and call it a compromise. I think it's dumb but I'd like to move on. As a lrt supporter I would be sad to see the loss of stations. Midland was my station growing up. And then I used Lawrence station in my early twenties. Subway advocates would equally be sad about losing the 2 added stations. But that's what a compromise is. No one is fully happy. I just want to move on because really I'm tired of being held ransom by politicians to just have further delays delays studies studies.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
With compensation to property owners, it would be highly uneconomical
Without compensation, it’s economical, but inadvisable. Watching Ford lose everything in the ensuing shitshow would be highly entertaining, however.
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TheTigerMaster
Superstar
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
crs1026
Superstar
Much as I’m a passionate anti-Ford fan, I am pleased that this government (for all its dumb moves) has an innate tendency to say “Holy Crap - that’s expensive - do we really have to?”
Which is a refreshing approach to governing, even if it backfires on things like education and social services.
Above ground to STC may be a stretch, but cut and cover down main streets is entirely possible and would easily save a cool billion on this extension.
Glenn DeB would have a conniption fit - he and the past City Council pretty much vowed not to expropriate on this project, all because the Star published a couple of “sad face” stories about homeowners on the route - even though some amount of expropriation is inevitable and prudent to satisfy the broader public interest. Cut and cover was rejected to avoid messy confrontations with residents, not because it was not doable.
For all their slease, the Ford regime is admirably hardheaded and hardnosed on matters where City Council has caved and allowed a more extravagant project scope, because they were unwilling to get their hands dirty on some of the less popular necessities. I bet Ford would have no trouble staring down the Scarborough Councillors if it meant a cheaper project, all the while declaring that Scarberians are his most loved constituents. That’s clever politicing.
I suspect this “expert panel” has some sleasy origin and agenda and may have actually finessed things that will come back to haunt Ford.... but if they recommend cut and cover, I will be very glad to see the result, delay and all.
- Paul
Which is a refreshing approach to governing, even if it backfires on things like education and social services.
Above ground to STC may be a stretch, but cut and cover down main streets is entirely possible and would easily save a cool billion on this extension.
Glenn DeB would have a conniption fit - he and the past City Council pretty much vowed not to expropriate on this project, all because the Star published a couple of “sad face” stories about homeowners on the route - even though some amount of expropriation is inevitable and prudent to satisfy the broader public interest. Cut and cover was rejected to avoid messy confrontations with residents, not because it was not doable.
For all their slease, the Ford regime is admirably hardheaded and hardnosed on matters where City Council has caved and allowed a more extravagant project scope, because they were unwilling to get their hands dirty on some of the less popular necessities. I bet Ford would have no trouble staring down the Scarborough Councillors if it meant a cheaper project, all the while declaring that Scarberians are his most loved constituents. That’s clever politicing.
I suspect this “expert panel” has some sleasy origin and agenda and may have actually finessed things that will come back to haunt Ford.... but if they recommend cut and cover, I will be very glad to see the result, delay and all.
- Paul
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
If Ford wanted this thing built, he would’ve ordered this review to be done on Day 1, rather than 30% through his term. This reeks of obstructionism, not fiscal prudence.
sixrings
Senior Member
Of course they don't have to. They could have just built the lrt. But let's pretend theyre being honest vs just punting the political football down the road. Can they cut and cover Eglinton west lrt while at it in your fantasy land that this is about being financially prudent vs simply not wanting to build anything.
crs1026
Superstar
Most of Eglinton West belongs on the surface, except at a couple of intersections. Which should be cut and cover. I don’t see the connection. Your point?
If the Ford gang are now against building this extension, it’s only because the Council-approved version is beyond their means. Which, I think, is what the last five year’s discussion in this thread has been saying. Good on them for finally smelling the coffee.
I do find it ominous that several of the panel members are from the same firm. That doesn’t sound like the typical greybeard panel of experts from different backgrounds. One wonders if their solution will be something that their firm is good at delivering?
- Paul
sixrings
Senior Member
I just don't trust them. They say subways subways subways. Everybody deserves underground transit that people can't see. Now all of a sudden things are too expensive. We all knew the costs. Why are they acting sticker shocked now. And they are the ones whom wanted to reintroduce two stations adding to the cost. I can't name one thing the Ford's have ever done to allow me to give them the benefit of the doubt. There are all sorts of politicians who I may not love or agree with but still have credibility. The Ford's are like big bulls in a China shop. All they know how to do is tear down, delay and promise promise promise. You can elect me next time, if you just want someone to do nothing, collect a cheque and tell you things you want to hear.
Jaye101
Active Member
I mean, personally I think it was irresponsible not to consider an elevated or at grade alignment through such a low density area.
As someone who grew up in North Scarborough, I also thought it was irresponsible for John Tory to propose an alignment that didn't reach Sheppard East in the first phase. Malvern was promised Rapid Transit in the 80's. It takes a chorus of buses 30 mins to cross the 401 along McCowan during rush (Sheppard to Scarborough Centre).
While I do support Tory, I think he's a kick ass Mayor. As a tax payer and transit user, If this extension is delayed for the sake of reaching Sheppard East and to reduce costs by pursuing an at grade or elevated alignment, I wouldn't be mad at all.
As someone who grew up in North Scarborough, I also thought it was irresponsible for John Tory to propose an alignment that didn't reach Sheppard East in the first phase. Malvern was promised Rapid Transit in the 80's. It takes a chorus of buses 30 mins to cross the 401 along McCowan during rush (Sheppard to Scarborough Centre).
While I do support Tory, I think he's a kick ass Mayor. As a tax payer and transit user, If this extension is delayed for the sake of reaching Sheppard East and to reduce costs by pursuing an at grade or elevated alignment, I wouldn't be mad at all.
sixrings
Senior Member
And if delayed just turns to quit cancelled will you still not be mad at all?
syn
Senior Member
That's the problem with the one stop subway - it's the worst of both worlds.
If that's what we have to settle for when it comes to transit development then Toronto is in even more trouble than we think.
sixrings
Senior Member
I don't see it that way. The rt needs to be replaced. We have a few options. The lrt. New rt trains. Or the subway. That's three options. I really hope were not going to spend years of studying to make a couple more options. We have enough options and we've done enough studying. I'd like to build and get this Scarborough charade over with. That way we can actually get on to real transit priorities which have somehow become second fiddle in all this nonsense.
crs1026
Superstar
Douggie is far from stupid, but he and his crowd are intellectually lazy. These are the guys who said they could eliminate the deficit by “finding efficiencies”. It’s easy to say stuff like that when you don’t care to know what things cost or how much you need.
Sometimes we give people too much credit. I really think this isn’t a conspiracy, but simply a screw up. He spent his first year in office saying stuff without understanding the facts.., but finally somebody said, “No really, it will cost this much, there’s no economies to be had”. And now he’s between a rock and a hard place. It’s a “Doh” moment.
I can’t imagine that he could walk back the commitment to build this thing, but he will try his hardest to look for a sulver bullet. All he really needs is to be able to say he found a cheaper way - even if that’s an illusion.
- Paul