Admiral Beez
Superstar
What if the tax is successful, and half a million commuters switch over to the TTC. Is the TTC set up to take this rise?
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Congestion taxes?
- Thread starter isittimetomoveyet
- Start date
Long Island Mike
Senior Member
Will Toronto institute congestion pricing for auto commuters into Central Toronto?
Everyone: Will congesting pricing-or a tax on auto commuters ease traffic into Central Toronto-I feel YES-but can the TTC handle the additional ridership of former auto commuters?
NYC is considering a similar option for Manhattan S of 96th Street on weekdays modeled on London's congestion pricing
program. it is explained here at: WWW.CCLONDON.COM/
There are good maps posted here also-I found it interesting that certain roads pass thru parts of the congestion zone allowing free passage as long as you stay on them. But as in NYC-can it be politically possible in Toronto? LI MIKE
Everyone: Will congesting pricing-or a tax on auto commuters ease traffic into Central Toronto-I feel YES-but can the TTC handle the additional ridership of former auto commuters?
NYC is considering a similar option for Manhattan S of 96th Street on weekdays modeled on London's congestion pricing
program. it is explained here at: WWW.CCLONDON.COM/
There are good maps posted here also-I found it interesting that certain roads pass thru parts of the congestion zone allowing free passage as long as you stay on them. But as in NYC-can it be politically possible in Toronto? LI MIKE
TKTKTK
Senior Member
Rather than punitive congestion charges, why not organize a toll system that encourages intensification within city limits? Place highway tolls on the 400 north of Steeles, 404 north of Steeles, QEW west of Mississauga or Etobicoke city limits, 401 east of Scarborough, 401 west of Erin Mills, 410 north of Bovaird or Mayfield Rd.
Alternately you could just do what we do now; tax gas through the nose and levy the tarrifs based on consumption. Maybe use a gradated tax (like income tax); a small percentage on 25L/month, a larger percentage on gas purchases up 60L/month and an even steeper tax on gas amounts beyond that? Might be tricky to administer, but I'm sure there's a way to do it.
Alternately you could just do what we do now; tax gas through the nose and levy the tarrifs based on consumption. Maybe use a gradated tax (like income tax); a small percentage on 25L/month, a larger percentage on gas purchases up 60L/month and an even steeper tax on gas amounts beyond that? Might be tricky to administer, but I'm sure there's a way to do it.
allabootmatt
Senior Member
I wish Toronto were at the point where a C-charge were feasible; it's not yet, for two reasons. One is the obvious: that transit, even within the central city, isn't where it needs to be to make road pricing fair. It would take another couple of subway lines to do that.
Second is that downtown Toronto isn't as much of a juggernaut as, say, central London. Despite the decamping of a few companies to places like Slough, C London is such an enormous employment and cultural centre that the notion that the C charge would drive people away is fanciful. While central Toronto is a huge draw, the idea that the suburbs could hollow it out is unlikely but definitely not impossible. So I would be wary of something as harsh as a congestion charge. A nominal toll on highways to raise money for transit, though, I could live with.
Second is that downtown Toronto isn't as much of a juggernaut as, say, central London. Despite the decamping of a few companies to places like Slough, C London is such an enormous employment and cultural centre that the notion that the C charge would drive people away is fanciful. While central Toronto is a huge draw, the idea that the suburbs could hollow it out is unlikely but definitely not impossible. So I would be wary of something as harsh as a congestion charge. A nominal toll on highways to raise money for transit, though, I could live with.
TKTKTK
Senior Member
Out of curiosity, why? What is it, specifically, about a congestion charge that is so attractive to everyone? Is it just an extension of anglophilia?
vicente
New Member
If everyone ends up paying a congestion fee and there is little to no change in behavior, then it becomes a de facto tax increase. That is what will happen if a congestion charge is applied to downtown Toronto. If public transit is inconvenient and inadequate, businesses will move to the suburbs instead of paying a thousand or more dollars per worker every year.
allabootmatt
Senior Member
Compare the state of tubes/buses in London pre-C charge and now and you will know what I mean...the improvements have been quite dramatic, because the charge has allowed Ken to absolutely plow money into transit. Not to mention the fact that, compared to similarly huge and congested cities (New York, eg) buses absolutely fly, even at rush hour.
Fares are going down too.
Interestingly, the idea for a similar charge in New York seems a bit much to me, since blocking off all of Manhattan south of 96th includes a much, much wider area than the London zone. There are probably less than 200,000 people living in the entire area of London covered by the charge--it doesn't even go west of Park Lane.
I wonder if diplomats in New York will refuse to pay, as the US embassy, which lies *just* inside the zone, does in London.
TKTKTK
Senior Member
Interesting, so the hope is that with a congestion charge that motorists will increase the amount of funding they provide for public transit? Is there a wide-spread belief that motorists don't contribute a fair share to PT?
Admiral Beez
Superstar
We shouldn't assume that more income from congestion fees will be used for transit improvements. First of all, you can expect the unions to see the increased city coffers and demand pay increases. Secondly, you'll have existing programs that have been underfunded now getting a funding boost, such as the TCHC, shelters and existing infrastructure.
By the time the congestion fees make their way to the city's general revenue account, they'll be little left for transit....unless....the mayor himself, like London's mayor, forces the funding toward transit.
By the time the congestion fees make their way to the city's general revenue account, they'll be little left for transit....unless....the mayor himself, like London's mayor, forces the funding toward transit.
afransen
Senior Member
Easy fix: give the money directly to GTTA (or Translinx *shudder*).
BUGEYEDBRIT
Active Member
to a degree Ken Livingstone did plough funding into TFL(transport for london), but only by borrowing it, it still has to be repaid, and currently, it doesn't quite add up...its no surprise that fares on most public transport in the UK continue to rise well above inflation, as the govt tries to reduce/eliminate subsidy funding.... while that might seem laudible, it crucifies the users( I was one, paying 4k gbp a year to get to my office), maybe the users have a choice, but I don't think a lot of people do, its a necessity in a big city, not a luxury.
allabootmatt
Senior Member
You are right about fares on transit outside the capital; I am often shocked by what buses cost in provincial English cities (I live in the UK). But in London the famously expensive Tube really isn't that bad--£1.50 by Oyster in Zones 1 and 2, and 90p for the bus. That's probably on the higher end of global transit fares, but it's certainly within a standard deviation or so.
And while I can't cite statistics the incidence of major delays on the Tube--which used to be a daily occurrence--seems to have fallen dramatically over the last few years as the huge backlog of deferred maintenance is finally dealt with. London is, no question, one of the most aggressive cities on the planet in terms of investing in infrastructure right now, and the C-charge is a big part of that.
It will be interesting to see how much of the huge list of current capital projects gets finished relatively on time/budget, since this is not traditionally an English strong suit; viz, the Jubilee debacle.
Interesting to note, for those of us from 'Transit City,' that Ken's current dream, in the city that invented the subway, is a high-speed tram from Euston to Waterloo (via Southampton Row and Kingsway, I think).
And while I can't cite statistics the incidence of major delays on the Tube--which used to be a daily occurrence--seems to have fallen dramatically over the last few years as the huge backlog of deferred maintenance is finally dealt with. London is, no question, one of the most aggressive cities on the planet in terms of investing in infrastructure right now, and the C-charge is a big part of that.
It will be interesting to see how much of the huge list of current capital projects gets finished relatively on time/budget, since this is not traditionally an English strong suit; viz, the Jubilee debacle.
Interesting to note, for those of us from 'Transit City,' that Ken's current dream, in the city that invented the subway, is a high-speed tram from Euston to Waterloo (via Southampton Row and Kingsway, I think).
BUGEYEDBRIT
Active Member
but comparing Oyster fares is not the same as 'cash' fares is it? What is a cash fare if you just turn up ? (just looked - west hampstead to bank is 4 quid one way!! -thats over 8 c$ !! )
When I moved to Toronto the cash fare for a one way trip on the TTC was 2 bucks, it then move to 2.10, then 2.25, now its 2.75, for essentially the same service(it will be 3 years in march since I moved), this is quite a leap in only 3 years, something like 37%, its no wonder I walk these days.
When I moved to Toronto the cash fare for a one way trip on the TTC was 2 bucks, it then move to 2.10, then 2.25, now its 2.75, for essentially the same service(it will be 3 years in march since I moved), this is quite a leap in only 3 years, something like 37%, its no wonder I walk these days.
TKTKTK
Senior Member
I've always taken a lot of issue with the price of the cash fare on the TTC. On one hand it makes sense (they need money, and it encourages people to buy metropasses, or tokens [certainly not tickets as they continually make them go void]) but on the other hand, $2.75 puts them about $0.50 over what it would cost to drive downtown and find parking.
It seems underhanded to make PT seem more affordable by artificially increasing the cost of other methods (congestion charge, I'm looking at you)
CDL.TO
Moderator
They jack up cash fare because they're trying to discourage people from using cash fares and lining up all the time. Just get an Oyster (or buy tokens in Toronto)!
A zones 1-2 day pass costs 6.80 before 9am and 5.30 after (only 1.30 more than a single ticket). With an Oyster it's 4.80.