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Computer purchase advice please

What baffles me is that newer OS versions haven't done a better job of emulating their predecessors. Given that machines are ridiculously overpowered for word processing and web browsing these days, software emulation of 5 - 10 year old applications shouldn't be much of a chore. It would make the transition to new version easier (or palatable, with the case of Vista and it's distaste for many proprietary apps).

One thing I do think Apple is rather hard to understand on is their ingenious marketing department. They say things and have said things for years that absolutely aren't true.

Just look at their web page on Rosetta, the built-in emulation program in OS X to run PowerPC binaries on an Intel x86 Mac:

http://www.apple.com/rosetta/

It clearly states that "There's no emulation. No second-class status." when it couldn't be further from the truth.

Rosetta doesn't appear to be an emulator because it doesn't open up in a different environment or require a reboot, but its still emulation. A huge performance hit takes place when running PPC binaries on an x86 Mac, and not only that, but many programs (particularly intensive 3D games) just won't work at all or are too slow to work properly. And the problem for the end user is that they buy these new blazing fast dual or quad core x86 systems that are much faster than their previous PowerPC Macs, yet the software runs slower??

That's the problem with Apple. Apple uses clever marketing all the time, but sometimes they put outright lies up and people who aren't technical (i.e. most of their clients) really believe this stuff.

There's some serious incompatibility problems because Apple has switched platforms virtually every 2 years for the past 10 years. OS 9 32 bit - OS X 32 bit PPC - OS X 64 bit PPC - OS X 32 bit Intel x86 - OS X 64 bit Intel x86.

That's 5 platform changes since the original OS X came out in March 2001, just months before Windows XP 32 bit x86 came out in fall 2001.

Admittedly the big deal isn't going from a 32 bit version to 64 bit version (save for driver issues), the real problem is that Apple has had a total operating system re-write no less than 3 times in the past 7 years. Not just a version change from 32 bit to 64 bit, but TOTAL re-write of the OS. OS 9 - OS X Power PC - OS X x86.

One would hope that Apple stays with the x86 platform and stops this non-sense from skipping around every other year. Apple only adopted Power PC technology in the mid 1990's and it barely lasted 10 years.

I remember my first Macintosh when I was a kid, we got a Motorola 68k Mac Performa in 1995, my first home Macintosh. It was totally outdated within two years and wouldn't run ANY PowerPC software despite having a relatively fast processor for its time. A matter of fact, some of the 68k Quadras and Performa's at 66MHz outperformed the original PowerPC systems for years because of the lack of PPC software or a fully native MacOS at the time.

So we bought a Power Mac G3 for a family system in 1998 barely 3 years after investing into that original 68k Mac because NO NEW SOFTWARE would work.

This has been an ongoing problem for Apple for many years now. You don't know if you're current Mac will be able to run anything in several years because they keep changing the technology.

My family purchased two Macintosh systems: A Performa 68k processor based Mac in 1995 and a PowerPC G3 Mac in 1998. In 1998 it made sense, I was in high school and needed Mac compatibility. Today it really doesn't make sense at all looking back at why we spent so much money for systems that were outdated so quickly.

My Vista laptop today can run Windows 95 applications from 13 years ago mostly with no problems, just as a comparison.


And for the Mac fans out there, this seriously isn't dogging Apple that bad. They have some terrific technology and some terrific products, but you pay a huge premium for a product that just doesn't seem to last from a compatibility perspective.

You'll go away spending $2,000 on a Mac system that you can easily buy a Windows Vista machine for $800 with similar hardware. Particularly since PCs have open hardware architecture and you can buy from different processor and motherboard vendors, etc.

My biggest problem with Apple to this day is the fact that they don't open up their architecture. They could possibly overtake Windows and Microsoft's hedgemony if they just set a rule that they would become a software developer and leave the hardware to the open market much like Microsoft. Of course they would need to retain some quality control to ensure the Mac ease of use, like requiring drivers and hardware to be approved, but Apple will never do this. They will forever be the expensive, custom built PC that controls only 5% of the market (if that).
 
Yes, I know I'm on a Mac rant, but had to add one thing to the above.

Apple's common statement in the past was always that they had superior hardware architecture because of the PowerPC processor (or 68k processor in the old, old days; while I was only 10 years old in 1992, I do remember seeing Mac advertisements claiming the 68k 32 bit advantage over the 16 bit Windows 3 based 386 systems that were popular at the time). They always said this hardware advantage was a significant advantage.

These days the hardware is no longer a reason to buy a Mac, its purely software. Underneath that sleek case and that smooth OS X interface is just a slightly altered version of the exact same hardware running Windows Vista PC's.

Intel Core 2 Duo and Core 2 Quad processors are not any faster what-so-ever than their Vista counterparts. Its also the same GeForce or Radeon graphics subsystems. There is no hardware difference what-so-ever. None.

The only thing that is different these days is the MacOS X software, and there is no reason to pay that significantly different of a price for an operating system. ESPECIALLY when Linux variants are available free of charge and have similar UNIX based technology.

That's why I think Apple may have some decent products, but they are so priced over their value that it pulls into question if I'll ever buy an Apple product again.
 
Yes, I know I'm on a Mac rant, but had to add one thing to the above.

Apple's common statement in the past was always that they had superior hardware architecture because of the PowerPC processor (or 68k processor in the old, old days; while I was only 10 years old in 1992, I do remember seeing Mac advertisements claiming the 68k 32 bit advantage over the 16 bit Windows 3 based 386 systems that were popular at the time). They always said this hardware advantage was a significant advantage.

These days the hardware is no longer a reason to buy a Mac, its purely software. Underneath that sleek case and that smooth OS X interface is just a slightly altered version of the exact same hardware running Windows Vista PC's.

Intel Core 2 Duo and Core 2 Quad processors are not any faster what-so-ever than their Vista counterparts. Its also the same GeForce or Radeon graphics subsystems. There is no hardware difference what-so-ever. None.

The only thing that is different these days is the MacOS X software, and there is no reason to pay that significantly different of a price for an operating system. ESPECIALLY when Linux variants are available free of charge and have similar UNIX based technology.

That's why I think Apple may have some decent products, but they are so priced over their value that it pulls into question if I'll ever buy an Apple product again.

I figure the price difference for a high end laptop from Apple right now is around $500 over dell (was around $300). Apple just does not sell low-end alternatives to fill in the market.

The price difference for the Mac Pro (standard version) is nill. Buying a dual-processor mother board and two Xeon 2.8Ghz processors is going to run you around a couple of grand (that is without the case, power supply, memory, graphics card, and hard drive).

Other side notes:

Even if the PowerPC processor was superior - Apple really had no choice but to move to Intel because of portable laptops (which is there biggest growth segment). PowerPC for portables was problematic (i.e. too hot, or too much energy consumption).

The move from PowerPC to Intel was not a major change in the operating system. (i.e. still Unix with a Apple UI). As far as OS9 to UNIX - right decision as far as I am concerned - Microsoft should have made the same move. I have seen the windows code, and it is pretty well at the point of maintenance failure, too much old spaghetti code.... which is why they are taking 6 years to make a major release. Microsoft Windows 7 is already being scaled back again, it will end up being a maintenance release for Windows Vista.

And yes, Vista has deprecated Win16, which fortunately our company has an application defendant on -- since it keeps me with XP for now (until I can figure how to get them over to Linux). As far as I am concerned, every once in a while old interfaces have to be stripped out - as long as software companies are notified ahead of time so that they can get updates of their software prepped for lauch date.
 
Moving the MacOS X from PowerPC to x86-32 and x86-64 is still a full re-write of the code with an emulation system to run the original OS X software.

While it was inevitable that Apple moved to Intel, the point is that they have lost their entire selling platform. Its purely software now, and I see Apple being forced to open up OS X to where it can be sold on any PC to remain competitive in the PC world, otherwise they will become a phone and music entertainment/electronics organization and eventually have to move out of the PC business.

Apple has been making big bucks in the consumer electronics industry while their computer empire has actually been less than stellar. If they hadn't invented the Ipod and Iphone, they probably wouldn't have been able to last this long.

That uncertainty of the platform would keep me with a traditional PC and run Windows, unless you're a bona fide Linux fanatic. By all means, run Linux if you're into that, but Linux code is as messy as Vista is in all reality.
 
I have seen the windows code, and it is pretty well at the point of maintenance failure, too much old spaghetti code.... which is why they are taking 6 years to make a major release. Microsoft Windows 7 is already being scaled back again, it will end up being a maintenance release for Windows Vista.

In 2008 every operating system appears to have what you call "spaghetti code" as they all have lots of features and junk thrown in that really isn't necessary, although I will admit Microsoft is king of throwing in junk that simply isn't necessary.

As far as 6 years for a major release, Microsoft did essentially release a new operating system core without charging for it. Windows XP SP2 really had significant core changes to the Windows XP system, and no one had to pay for it.

I'll give big props to Microsoft for doing that, because quite honestly I think its absurd to be talking about releasing Windows 7 anytime soon.

A Vista SP2 update will suffice and I would be happy if Microsoft didn't release a new fee-based upgrade version of Windows for years to come.

What you see as a negative I see as a positive, Apple has been charging for OS upgrades that are not different than going from Windows XP to XP SP2.
 
Moving the MacOS X from PowerPC to x86-32 and x86-64 is still a full re-write of the code with an emulation system to run the original OS X software.

I doubt that - it is mostly just a recompilation (C) of existing code (unless they coded the entire system in assembly language). Emulation was required to run machine level code on a different processor. I am sure there was some C code that had to be rewritten, but I doubt there would have been much - it would just be a pain to track it down.
 
I have to ask you what you think a recompilation is, because its a total re-write of the operating system. Its a re-write of the machine code, I'm aware its the same operating environment and higher level code, so don't try to get this one by on me. ;) Old programs run through the Rosetta emulation system and its not that fluid, these new dual core Intel x86 iMacs are tanking some of the many MacOS PowerPC applications that run faster on older hardware that is slower.

BTW, you've probably been able to pick up on my opinion quite easily.

I think Windows Vista has been a success from a technological standpoint. Its the first version of Windows to ever be released where there weren't massive security holes that were exposed in droves soon after its release as the original XP had, and its got the Win NT kernel technology so the stability of the OS internally has been top notch just like XP.

The problem comes with Microsoft's marketing. There is no reason to have this many variants of Vista floating around.

What Microsoft Vista is, well, its Microsoft's first fully featured, fully supported 64 bit platform for the masses. From genuinely good driver support bases to a platform that really takes advantage of the new dual and quad core age of computing, Vista totally blows Windows XP out of the water.

I have gotten to where I can't stand people whine that they want to keep XP. Its like people who wanted to keep Windows 3.1 when Windows 98 was coming out...

Everyone is aware that Vista takes a bare minimum of 1 gig of ram just to operate and 2 gigs to actually start to work, but in today's age anyone can afford a system with 3 or 4 gigs of memory.

Last time I checked, people were upset that XP took an entire 512 MB to start running efficiently and it choked on 128 MB of RAM, while previous versions of Windows would run on 64 megs. EVERY new and improved operating system is going to require more hardware, and people just need to get used to it, its not a reason to hate Vista.

The only reason to hate Vista is the stupid naming scheme. Microsoft shouldn't even have released Windows Basic, they should have stuck with two home versions: Home Premium and Ultimate, charge a discounted rate for Home Premium and for those who want to waste the money on Ultimate charge more for it.

Its bad enough each version has a distinct 32 bit and 64 bit variety, and Microsoft really screwed up the marketing so they lost their wallet on the release of Vista compared with XP.

But yea, its time people moved to Vista. Its a good platform IMO. I have been using it since February 2007 and never regretted my early switch. The only program I ever had a problem with was Microsoft Streets and Trips 2005 that seemed to endlessly crash, but I admit to having downloaded the software for free and it was cracked... So I just got a newer version and it works fine.

Everything else has worked better than XP. It took me several months to be comfortable with the new Vista interface and new locations of controls/names of items, but after 6 years of using Windows XP that is to be expected. Vista is clearly a leap and bound ahead of XP whose days are in the past.
 
In 2008 every operating system appears to have what you call "spaghetti code" as they all have lots of features and junk thrown in that really isn't necessary, although I will admit Microsoft is king of throwing in junk that simply isn't necessary.

As far as 6 years for a major release, Microsoft did essentially release a new operating system core without charging for it. Windows XP SP2 really had significant core changes to the Windows XP system, and no one had to pay for it.

I'll give big props to Microsoft for doing that, because quite honestly I think its absurd to be talking about releasing Windows 7 anytime soon.

A Vista SP2 update will suffice and I would be happy if Microsoft didn't release a new fee-based upgrade version of Windows for years to come.

What you see as a negative I see as a positive, Apple has been charging for OS upgrades that are not different than going from Windows XP to XP SP2.

I think Microsoft would be better off worrying less about backwards compatibility... especially when you are really talking about trying to maintain compatibility with DOS, Windows running on DOS, Windows 95/98, then Windows 2000/XP. That is the junk that needs to be thrown out. This focus on making sure that applications work out of the box, on the new operating system has lead to fear at stripping out ugly looking unmaintainable code because it will likely break some application that was compiled 10 years ago. This has lead to a code base that is in disrepair (IMHO). The only thing they should really worry about is having a migration plan so that all of the suppliers can have applications available for a major release of the operating system. Worst case, run the old version under a virtual machine. (also make sure that you set expectations). If you want to run an old application, just run it on the old operating system .... :eek:
 
Dual, Quad core processors are useless when you are running one application in most cases - very few applications take advantage of the multiple processors (which is probably good, since most programmers can't program multi-threaded applications very well). For me, I just wish Oracle was out for the OS X. Then I would not hesitate in getting a Mac Pro since I could use it both for my oracle server and as my daily machine at the same time :p

But Oracle is one application that can use multi-cores (and the 32 Gigs of memory) :p
 
I doubt our opinions are that different, from a pure technology standpoint, the Linux kernel is more advanced than Windows NT based kernels; however, the usability of Linux or UNIX variants like BSD are so much worse that it really doesn't work for me.

Microsoft is the 800 lbs gorilla in the room, but it has stayed there for many reasons, and all the "spaghetti code" aside, Vista is actually a pretty good system.

As far as Apple, well lets just say I got sick of spending $2,000 on a computer system that literally wouldn't run software 2-3 years after you bought the thing.

My mother has an old original AMD Athlon XP system I built many years ago and with 1 gig of memory it actually runs Windows Vista sufficiently when we upgraded it with my copy. Try putting Leopard or any new software on an old Mac and you'll run into a dead end. Try installing the new Intel software on a Power PC mac from just 2 years ago and you're out of luck.

Backwards and future compatibility has a place, it can't be totally discounted.

Apple has setup the Macintosh system to where you are basically required to invest $1500-2500 (depending on what you want) every 2-3 years just to get software to WORK.

With a PC platform, I was able to install Windows Vista on a discount $800 PC I built probably 6 years ago, give that old system to my mother, and I bought my own new Vista system last year at less than $800.

I don't know, $1600 for two systems bought 6 years apart vs nearly $2000 for one system every few years is a pretty significant difference when it comes to what Macs are really worth.

I do admit having to upgrade the memory in the Athlon XP system... At a grand cost of $40, but that's nothing. I was able to install my OEM copy of Vista from this new laptop on the old desktop free of charge and the key worked... So I basically haven't had to pay anything significant for my copy of Windows Vista. This laptop was $699 on sale at Best Buy and its a Core Duo system that has enough speed for my needs.

With all this being said, I still admit Macs are pleasant to use. The slick OS X interface is attractive and the hardware is high quality. Apple cases tend to be appealing (particularly the Mac Pro) and the hardware tends to be solid. But on the contrary, it isn't that compatible and the hardware doesn't last (in terms of compatibility). And that extra money spent could be a ticket to Paris for a week. Why waste the money when you could travel and take that Windows Vista laptop on your vacation. ;)
 
Apple has setup the Macintosh system to where you are basically required to invest $1500-2500 (depending on what you want) every 2-3 years just to get software to WORK.

That's just plain nonsense. I just recently retired 6 original bondi blue iMacs. They were almost 10 years old and they were decent machines up to about a year ago.
 
They were almost 10 years old and they were decent machines up to about a year ago.

...in your opinion.

Imacs were great...for making them into fishtanks....not much else.
 
Re: coding for multi core procs, you'll see a lot more of that shortly, at least for computationally intensive applications. There are a number of platforms in development to facilitate parallelism without relying on code monkeys optimizing for a particular number of cores. RapidMind is the one that is furthest along, already in use in some industrial applications (real time ray tracing in design software for the automotive industry). It's designed by a prof at Waterloo...
 
LOL, the funny thing is that the original poster already said he was staying away from Apple to begin with. We've beaten this Apple to death. ;)

Really I don't believe in bashing the Mac platform for no reason, as said before it has some good points. For people who just hate Windows and want something easy to use, its an alternative platform that does work.

Just remember you'll be paying out the nose for equipment that has a smaller software base and less compatibility and you'll be fine. For a lot of people this doesn't even matter, they don't want to run a bunch of 3D games from the past or today, they just want to browse the internet, type some papers, and use a webcam or PC phone or some other multimedia application. For that the Mac certainly is an alternative to Windows and for those who just hate Windows, it works fine.

For most people, Windows just works. Yes, even Vista works great. ;)
 

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