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Central Waterfront Public Realm (West 8/DTAH)

Re: Innovative Design Competition - Visual Transformation!

I was at the presentation last night as well, and have to say I was thoroughly underwhelmed.

I am completely baffled by the gung-ho support that Foster's proposal seems to generating on this site. While I thought they had a couple of good ideas - the restructuring of queen's quay traffic patterns and (more importantly) the treatment of the north/south 'gateways' leading from the city core to the water's edge - their major gesture, the teardrop/sail icons, seemed to me to be overwrought and impractical, a line of white elephants along the lake.

I hesitate to offer any of the other proposals as "better" however. Like Foster's, most of the other proposals had a good idea or two, but none of them really added up to a coherent or valid vision. I feel that the core objective of this design exercise was lost in these proposals: providing a coherent connective tissue that unites the disparate elements of the central waterfront. Most of these proposals (PORT's and Foster's especially) were focused on scattering MORE objects across the waterfront, putting the goal of unification and pedestrian flow a distant second.

On this criteria, I have to say that the Du Toit/Hillier (was that their name?) proposal did the best job. And yes, I know the floating maple leaf and the chinatown gate and all that were silly and bordered on insulting - by no means am I defending those aspects of the project. But they, unlike anyone else, created a strategy that interlocked a smooth and continuous waterfront line (the bridges) with the serrated zigzag created by the slips, quays and piers. This complex, twin condition is at the heart of the central waterfront problem, and it went largely unaddressed.

I'm glad that so many people are enthusiastic about a new waterfront, but are any of these designs really the right choice?
 
Re: Innovative Design Competition - Visual Transformation!

I'm glad that so many people are enthusiastic about a new waterfront, but are any of these designs really the right choice?
Click to expand...

Most of the proposals improve on the continuity of the waterfront and transform Queen's Quay so whether we get weather masts, tears drops or maple leaves in the harbour, at least those fundamental issues will be addressed. My biggest concern is, is this actually going to happen? A June 2007 date for ribbon-cutting doesn't seem realistic, especially in this city.
 
Re: Innovative Design Competition - Visual Transformation!

I agree that none came anywhere near what I thought we might see as well. But I think we are limited as well as to what we can do along the waters edge thanks to past bad planning. West 8 & du Toit Allsopp Hillier did address the situation best.


Foster would have impressed me if they came up with something like the West Kowloon Cultural District they built in Hong Kong. This is a city, and I don't think every square inch of land needs to be green. Also a large cultural centre built out into the lake would have been nice to see.
091104-1.jpg
 
Re: Innovative Design Competition - Visual Transformation!

We don't have any need for such a centre. To build one would be a ridiculously expensive white elephant.
 
Re: Innovative Design Competition - Visual Transformation!

I was at the presentation last night as well, and have to say I was thoroughly underwhelmed.
Click to expand...

I'd have to agree...maybe I was expecting too much, but none of the proposals blew me out of the water.

their major gesture, the teardrop/sail icons, seemed to me to be overwrought and impractical, a line of white elephants along the lake.
Click to expand...

The teardrops won't just be empty structures - they'll be filled with retail, restaurants, etc. Assuming they're completed, they shouldn't end up being white elephants.
 
Re: Innovative Design Competition - Visual Transformation!

When will they decide the winner?
 
Re: Innovative Design Competition - Visual Transformation!

^ May 31st. Work is supposed to start this fall.
 
Re: Innovative Design Competition - Visual Transformation!

Whistler:

WKCD has not yet been built, and for all intents and purposes, the Foster design has been rejected.

I would really have liked to see it built, in Hong Kong or elsewhere, but I think it's much too unrealistic to see it built here in Toronto, where many residents aren't too fond of building new megastructures. Cost is the biggest issue. Hong Kong was fortunate enough to have consortiums made up of the city's biggest developers come out to bid on the project, but the developers seemed to be in the development only if they could turn a profit from it (they refused to contribute to a fund to pay for the cultural attractions at WKCD, which led to the undoing of the WKCD proposal). I can't see any big-name developer (or any level of government) in Toronto who is willing to take such a big gamble to build something like it.

Back to the waterfront design schemes... (thanks to Canuck for the photos, by the way)

- West 8 should be given the job of designing the paving and the landscaping (as seen from their rendering in the Star's poll), but I don't understand what's up with the maple leaves in the lake. They look good in model form but who will be able to tell that they're maple leaves in real life? Sure, people will see them from the CN Tower, and if you're flying out of the (soon-to-be-closed?) Island Airport. I wonder who's going to maintain the leaves, given the level of maintenance around this city?

- Foster still gets my vote as the best proposal. The model looks even better than the rendering. It's like a little Burj Al-Arab (not the Burj Dubai, Canuck... that's the world's tallest tower under construction). I'm curious whether any environmental features have been/will be added to the design... the top of the structure might be a good place to add some wind turbines, or even some solar panels.
 
Re: Robert Fung Leaving TWRC/Central Waterfront Designs

So does anyone actually want to talk about Robert Fung leaving TWRC? It's really sad to see what appears to be more political gamesmanship leading to the dismissal of someone who seems to be genuinely interested in the waterfront as opposed to a particular agenda. Is there an inside track on good reasons to get shot of RF that haven't come out in the media?
 
Re: Robert Fung Leaving TWRC/Central Waterfront Designs

One less person to take credit for something David Miller will use for his re-election campaign?
 
Re: Innovative Design Competition - Visual Transformation!

I was surprised by the turnout for the presentations.

Personally, I don't think any of the proposals are deserving. There were elements from each of the proposals I did like but none of them as a whole seemed either spectacular or even complete.

Of the group, my favourite was Foster. Their ideas of extending the waterfront by forcing waterways north right up to about Front Street sounds good to me. My only problem with that was that there wasn't one on Yonge Street and nothing really there to terminate Yonge in a dramatic way (in the lake) as some of the other proposals did. I also like how these waterways led right down to and far into the lake connecting the city with the water, the water with the city. The possibility of having those "sails" at the end of the piers and therefore, in effect, at the end of Spadina, York and Bay(?), would be a great way of visually connecting the lake with the inner city. For example, one could look down Spadina from a fair distance north and still see the instantly recognizable sail.

My problem with Foster was that the waterfront wasn't connected in a way that some of the other proposals proposed. One could still walk from east to west along the water's edge, but I would have prefered that bridges be made along the southern side connecting across the piers. That's what I liked about the West8 proposal. Actually, excluding the idea of massive trees, that's probably all I liked about the West8 proposal. With the bridges in place it wouldn't be necessary for people to zig-zag back-and-forth north and south just to walk along the water edge going east-west. You could pretty much walk in a continuous straight line fron Bathurst to Yonge and farther east. This is very important in my opinion.

Another Foster idea was to have small walls along the waterfront, some of which might run north-south, others perhaps east-west basically acting as wind barriers. The idea being that in cooler months, people could utilize the appropriate wind blocker to still enjoy the waterfront. I'll probably hear it for this but that's what I liked about WASAW's proposal. In the cooler months, (glass?) walls would basically be easily moved into place so that the roofed little gathering areas would be warmer. While I don't really like their execution of it, the concept would be something I'd be interested in having the TWRC explore.

Most of the proposals seemed to have an almost identical idea for what to do with Queen's Quay. Basically drop it to two lanes of traffic either way along the entire stretch, move the dedicated streetcar ROW to the south side and have it run along grass and then provide a cycling and rollerblading lane and a pedestrian lane.

Presentation-wise, the one thing I did notice is that Foster seemed to leave a fair amount open. While the other proposals got into some specifics, Foster didn't do this at all. I can only see two reasons for this.
1) They spent little time on their proposal and therefor didn't have specifics
2) They understand that things will change along the way and therefore they shouldn't be providing detailed specifics

I also liked Tod Williams Billie Tsien Architects' intersection overhangs. Just because this was done cheap at Dundas Square doesn't mean they'll be done cheap on the waterfront too. And as a bonus there's potential earnings from their solar panels helping kick in money for maintenance etc after completion. I think these would not only be visually stunning but help connect the entire waterfront as one looks down Queen's Quay.

If it were up to me, here's what I'd do.

- Foster's Waterways
- Foster's Piers with sail-like buildings - move one to Yonge Street
- West8's Massive trees lining Queen's Quay and area
- West8's pier bridges for an easily walkable waterfront
- Revised WASAW "warming" rooms for cooler months
- PORT's skating rink/swimming pool on the lake concept
- Tod Williams Billie Tsien Architects intersection overhangs.
 
Re: Robert Fung Leaving TWRC/New Acting Chair Appointed

Peter Smith, Chair of GO Transit and MISSISSAUGA resident has been named acting chair of the TWRC.

It was nice that Fung was given the opportunity to give a farewell speech at the exhibition last night. He got a huge enthusiastic and loud round of applause from the packed BCE atrium.

I think it would be a nice tribute if something was named after him along the waterfront, maybe one of the new piers slated to be built? He seems like a humble type of guy and probably wouldn't accept.

I have to question the motivation behind the Mayor's office of getting rid of him. From all reports the Province wanted him back and Ottawa didn't care who ran it, so it was left up to the Mayor's office to make the decision.

I would have been in strong favour of giving him another four years.

Louroz
 
Re: Robert Fung Leaving TWRC/New Acting Chair Appointed

There wasn't a wet eye in the house when he got all choked up during his farewell address. Life goes on.
 
Re: Robert Fung Leaving TWRC/New Acting Chair Appointed

Presentation-wise, the one thing I did notice is that Foster seemed to leave a fair amount open. While the other proposals got into some specifics, Foster didn't do this at all. I can only see two reasons for this.
1) They spent little time on their proposal and therefor didn't have specifics
2) They understand that things will change along the way and therefore they shouldn't be providing detailed specifics
Click to expand...

This seemed to be a problem with all of the proposals, though I agree Foster's was definitely the worst in this regard.

With winners being chosen soon, I expected more certainty overall.

I wonder if we'll get to see some of the proposals that were rejected...
 
Re: Robert Fung Leaving TWRC/New Acting Chair Appointed

They only got 15 minutes each to present their proposals so stuff was overlooked or missed.
 
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