Candidates and their subway plans... The Star tells you which one is more credible

[kettal]

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[kettal]

I haven’t needed to rely on the 190 route for a few years now so my mind thought back to when that route schedule was less frequent, particularly during the mid-day off-peak hours when I typically use it. At those combined headways between Don Mills and Midland that exist now though, it’s pretty feasible to insist that subway levels of demand are already occurring along this section of Sheppard East.

So you used a bus a couple times, years ago, during off peak, and you think that qualifies you to call the route under-utilized? Why should anybody believe to a word you say?

2) Ridiculously high frequencies - the busiest stations have a bus arriving every 13 seconds during peak hours. Note that the stations are quite compact too - they are all fit in the median.

3) Fast boarding/offboarding - the average duration of a bus at a station from door open to door close is 24 seconds

So it takes 24 seconds to load/unload, but a new bus arrives every 13 seconds... doesn't that present a problem?

 

[nfitz]

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Oh my .... isn't Rossi's plan the one with the most holes in it?

 

[Dan416]

I'd say Pantalone is the one with the most holes in it. How will we pay for transit? I'll get the province to pay for it. Um, right.

 

[nfitz]

I'd say Pantalone is the one with the most holes in it. How will we pay for transit? I'll get the province to pay for it. Um, right.

The Ontario government has committed huge amounts of spending for transit in MoveOntario 2020, and has said it would announce the funding mechanism in 2013 that will pay for the rest of it to complete the Big Move in 25 years. Surely simply accepting this as the funding mechanism isn't as bad as Rossi's bizarre Toronto Hydro scheme (bizarre because of his math, more so than the concept).

 

[kettal]

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[Fresh Start]

The Ontario government has committed huge amounts of spending for transit in MoveOntario 2020, and has said it would announce the funding mechanism in 2013 that will pay for the rest of it to complete the Big Move in 25 years. Surely simply accepting this as the funding mechanism isn't as bad as Rossi's bizarre Toronto Hydro scheme (bizarre because of his math, more so than the concept).

Neither Rossi's math nor his concept is that bizarre by contrast to Transit City. If THES fetches $3 billion as suggested that'd be enough to build 10 kilmetres of new subways over a 5 year period, which matches Rossi's target of 2 kms/stations per year. Setting small targets guarantees an increased likelihood of success. With grand schemes like Transit City there were/are just too many variables to factor in and it comprised deliberately lowballed costs which unfortunately the electorate had bought hook, line and sinker.

This isn't an endorsement for Rossi or anything as I think selling Toronto Hydro is short-sighted. But it is mighty refreshing to hear whenever politicians address alternatives to gov't modus operandi. His suggestion that voters ask their councillors if THEY will take a pay decrease is an excellent idea. I think this one question would show their commitment and do what it takes to get the city in better fiscal position. Let's remember to ask and document the candidates on this one.

 

[Fresh Start]

So you used a bus a couple times, years ago, during off peak, and you think that qualifies you to call the route under-utilized? Why should anybody believe to a word you say?

Yes off-peak because those were the hours wherein my workshift had occured, 5 days a week for about 6 months!! I do also distinctly remember in 2008 looking at the 190 schedule posted in Don Mills Stn listing times as 1:15, 1:30, 1:45, etc. I also recount the times I narrowly missed a bus (due to all those walkways and stairwells at DM) and I had to wait a minimum of 10 minutes for the next one. There were many times when the driver would arrive at the bus bay, park the vehicle, then step out and go on a coffee/washroom break while leaving the 4 dozen of us passengers stranded on the platform when we could have at least been sitting in the bus while we wait. But of course all that's anecdotal so you'll just assume that I making it all up. Maybe I should have videorecorded these incidents and leaked it to the media for it's only them that the TTC starts taking notice of their poor work ethic/standards.

So it takes 24 seconds to load/unload, but a new bus arrives every 13 seconds... doesn't that present a problem?

Not when the platforms areas are long enough to accomodate multiple bus routes feeding in at the same time. Routes just go to their designated holding area and let the customers on and off. But since no one should believe a word that I say as you put it, here's a visual for you:
[video=youtube;_etB3qQofTc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_etB3qQofTc[/video]

 

[ssiguy2]

So many different mickey mouse transit plans, so little time.

 

[nfitz]

If THES fetches $3 billion as suggested that'd be enough to build 10 kilmetres of new subways over a 5 year period, which matches Rossi's target of 2 kms/stations per year.

But even if it does fetch that, doesn't about $1 billion have to be paid to the Ontario government, and you'll have to replace the existing revenue stream that Toronto Hydro is providing the city coffers.

By the time you're finished, we'd be lucky if it could pay for 10 km of LRT.

 

[kettal]

Yes off-peak because those were the hours wherein my workshift had occured, 5 days a week for about 6 months!! I do also distinctly remember in 2008 looking at the 190 schedule posted in Don Mills Stn listing times as 1:15, 1:30, 1:45, etc. I also recount the times I narrowly missed a bus (due to all those walkways and stairwells at DM) and I had to wait a minimum of 10 minutes for the next one. There were many times when the driver would arrive at the bus bay, park the vehicle, then step out and go on a coffee/washroom break while leaving the 4 dozen of us passengers stranded on the platform when we could have at least been sitting in the bus while we wait. But of course all that's anecdotal so you'll just assume that I making it all up. Maybe I should have videorecorded these incidents and leaked it to the media for it's only them that the TTC starts taking notice of their poor work ethic/standards.

oh I believe you, I'm just waiting to hear how much busier the Sheppard subway was at the same time of day. You probably had a hard time finding a seat.

 

[Second_in_pie]

But even if it does fetch that, doesn't about $1 billion have to be paid to the Ontario government, and you'll have to replace the existing revenue stream that Toronto Hydro is providing the city coffers.

By the time you're finished, we'd be lucky if it could pay for 10 km of LRT.

I'm confused, doesn't he still have a good $4 billion or so from LRT? That's enough for 10 km subway, even by your rediculous subway standards.

Sarah Thompson's still got the best plan by far. A smart plan that addresses what the city needs, and a good (and possibly not as politically rocky as previously thought,) plan to fund all of it. Not to mention that she'd get the scraps of transit city to work with at first.

 

[nfitz]

I'm confused, doesn't he still have a good $4 billion or so from LRT? That's enough for 10 km subway, even by your rediculous subway standards.

That would be more than enough for 10 km of subway; even accounting for your ridiculous spelling. The province is just jumping up and down looking for reasons not to spend money though ... there's no indication that it would fund different projects that provide transit to different communities than what is currently funded.

Sarah Thompson's still got the best plan by far.

Though one has to ask why her cost estimates are half of Smitherman's. It does however, provide a reasonable funding source, rather than the shell games everyone else is playing. I do have to be suspicious however, of someone who is naive enough to put "Streetcars add to road congestion" and "90 year life of a subway system" right in her platform! Remember she promised a 33-km Eglinton subway line and wrote "$4.6 billion towards the Eglinton project, leaving $2 billion of financing that we will need to finish the project." Her numbers are complete bullshit. She also wants to use PPPs to build it - remember how well that has worked in other cities ... Conservative politicians called the PPP scheme in London "a colossal waste of money" and "a black hole". If she thinks PPP can work here, when it has failed in bigger cities than ours, she needs to contrast the situation; she hasn't attempted to do this - and I believe she doesn't actually understand it.

 

[Second_in_pie]

That would be more than enough for 10 km of subway; even accounting for your ridiculous spelling. The province is just jumping up and down looking for reasons not to spend money though ... there's no indication that it would fund different projects that provide transit to different communities than what is currently funded.

Interesting, I'm pretty sure that MO2020 didn't set any requirements for where the transit money went. The province would cut what it wants to cut, which it did. It didn't say at all what Metrolinx or the TTC was to do with that extra money.

Though one has to ask why her cost estimates are half of Smitherman's. It does however, provide a reasonable funding source, rather than the shell games everyone else is playing. I do have to be suspicious however, of someone who is naive enough to put "Streetcars add to road congestion" and "90 year life of a subway system" right in her platform! Remember she promised a 33-km Eglinton subway line and wrote "$4.6 billion towards the Eglinton project, leaving $2 billion of financing that we will need to finish the project." Her numbers are complete bullshit. She also wants to use PPPs to build it - remember how well that has worked in other cities ... Conservative politicians called the PPP scheme in London "a colossal waste of money" and "a black hole". If she thinks PPP can work here, when it has failed in bigger cities than ours, she needs to contrast the situation; she hasn't attempted to do this - and I believe she doesn't actually understand it.

Ah I forgot, you seem to think that all subway has to be underground. You do realize that subway in an elevated or trenched corridor (begging to be done Eglinton outside of Keele-Laird and Sheppard east of VP,) would cost half of what a tunneled one would, right? So if we're to pump up the numbers to your standards (I'm assuming fountains with gold cast statues in the stations,) then if we're putting elevated subway at $200 million/km and tunneled at $300 million/km, that's 7.5 billion for 33 km of subway. $1 billion off from her estimate. Hardly one of these massive lies that you say, and the same could be said for the whopping increase in the Eglinton LRT's cost.

PPP's meh. She could get the whole thing done with the plan she's got now without PPP. Though may I remind you that Vancouver did pretty well with it's PPP, yet you continue to call unfounded bullshit on that so I guess it's a moot point.

 

[nfitz]

Ah I forgot, you seem to think that all subway has to be underground.

Metrolinx has budgeted $6.07 billion to build the currently planned LRT from Jane to Kennedy, and has estimated that it would cost $767 million to construct the rest of the LRT 11.0 km from Jane to the Airport; that's a total of about $6.8 billion. I fail to see how Thompson thinks she can build the entire thing as subway for only $6.6 billion! Her math doesn't work!