News   Jul 15, 2024
 765     3 
News   Jul 15, 2024
 916     1 
News   Jul 15, 2024
 638     0 

Canada's next Prime Minister?

Who would win in the Federal Elections?


  • Total voters
    68
  • Poll closed .
You're ignoring my premise, that there would be an increase in gasoline taxes. Call it high-efficiency gas-furnace vs. clunker from the '70s.

Well there would be an increase in various fuel taxes. However according to page 28 of the Green Shift Handbook there is no increase in gasoline taxes for the forecast period. Apparently, truckers, farmers, manufacturers, all have to make cuts, except private drivers....who are responsible for nearly one sixth of Canada's carbon emissions. That seems like a political choice to me. However, you are right that the merits of carbon taxes still hold.

Diesel isn't our saviour. Let's not pretend it is. Debating which particular extract of petroleum is marginally more (cost?) efficient vs. just using less is a little like re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

Diesel isn't the saviour, but it certainly can help. It emits more carbon per litre (http://www.epa.gov/oms/climate/420f05001.htm) but diesel engines are disproportionately efficient to the amount of carbon dioxide they produce. Diesel engines are roughly 20-30% more fuel efficient while pumping out only 10% more CO2. There are strong thermodynamic reasons for this....namely the much higher T and P of combustion inside a diesel engine.

Walmart has invested in some low-hanging fruit that they expect to pay off in a couple of years and will reduce their fleet's fuel consumption by 15%. Besides making their trailers more aerodynamic, they are in the process of installing independent generators for their long-haul trucks that can be used to provide power to the cab while the driver is sleeping, rather than idling for 8-12 hours which is common practice. This is something that can be done with the existing capital stock. I work for a firm that operates a very large freight division within the Canadian market, and this company is certainly investing in high ROI retrofits to reduce fuel consumption. It has also driven efforts to reduce waste through idling time. These business process changes require no modification to the capital stock, yet can achieve siginificant increases in efficiency per unit of production.

I have a cousin who works at Walmart and is working with them on engineering a more efficient logistics flow. However, the challenge here is not the Walmarts of the world. You and I both know that trucking is largely an independent industry. To achieve the kind of fleet wide efficiencies we are talking about, we would have to change the nature of that business....that would mean significant consolidation away from the owner-operator rig. Or perhaps moving away from long distance trucking altogether in favour of rail. That's okay with me, but politicians should be honest about the end state here. And the idea of increased diesel prices prompting action also does not jive with the fact that many truckers have just as much incentive now with our record oil prices to make those changes but aren't doing so. They can't afford it. Instead of a fuel tax, a rebate for efficiency upgrades to the rigs might actually do more.


I'll note that today the price of oil increased by about the same as the fully-phased in carbon tax of $40 a tonne CO2e. Again... not an earth-shattering change. It will require some change, yes, but it is certainly manageable. If a one day swing won't crash the Canadian economy, a 4 year rise with plenty of notice won't either.

By that same token, if the market is already doing the job, then why the need for carbon taxes? Higher oil prices have done more for incentivizing fuel consumption than Dion's carbon tax could achieve in half a decade. It's the pace of increase here. Basically, Dion is adding about 17 dollars a barrel in about 4 years....over and above any price increases in the market. That's a significant stress on any energy intensive active.

What does Dion plan to do if next year's hurricane season suddenly sends oil prices with his carbon tax to 160 dollars a barrel equivalent...a very real possibility. A carbon tax will simply apply pressure to shift the demand curve leftward. However, given that most companies won't have adjusted to the new taxes yet, during the lag period, they will experience higher energy costs that inevitably will impact their bottom line. For example, Canada already taxes aviation fuels at some of the highest rates in the world. Dion plans to add to that. What is his plan, when this contributes to bankrupting Westjet if oil prices spike dramatically like this year...next summer?


I don't know if $3 billion per year is so much. Harper dropped $4 billion in infrastructure for Quebec right before the election; just roll that spending into the Liberal infrastructure plan and you're down to $8 billion right there. End $1.2 billion in preferential tax treatment for the oil sands (the oilsands needs preferential tax treatment?). $5.8 billion...

There's half?

I agree that 3 billion a year isn't much. But it's question of what they would cut. They aren't saying. Eliminating the accelerated capital cost allowance would only save 6 billion over 4 years. And I agree, that should be canned. But I'd like to see Dion pledge to cut the 4 billion in spending for Quebec and still keep those votes. Heck if he pledged that cut, he'd get my vote instantly! Still leaves a 2 billion hole, though that's fairly small......
 
Diesel isn't the saviour, but it certainly can help. It emits more carbon per litre (http://www.epa.gov/oms/climate/420f05001.htm) but diesel engines are disproportionately efficient to the amount of carbon dioxide they produce. Diesel engines are roughly 20-30% more fuel efficient while pumping out only 10% more CO2. There are strong thermodynamic reasons for this....namely the much higher T and P of combustion inside a diesel engine.

You do realize diesel is made from oil, right?

And sinced we've reached peak oil, our finite supply is finally coming to an end. So no, diesel will not help. Get ready for $200 barrel by Jan
 
What do you mean by peak oil?

You do realize that virtually no oil exploration has been carried out on over 80% of the earth's surface, that those exploration efforts have been reduced, that many oil-bearing areas are off limits to production, and that refinery capacity has been reduced.


We'll see about $200 a barrel in January.
 
You do realize diesel is made from oil, right?

And sinced we've reached peak oil, our finite supply is finally coming to an end. So no, diesel will not help. Get ready for $200 barrel by Jan

If we have reached peak oil, then a carbon tax is useless. The economic devastation from rapidly increasing energy costs in your time frame would probably cause a global depression which would result in reduced CO2 emissions. I am sure that would give every pro-Kyoto advocate a wet dream. Fortunately, your economic analysis is flawed. Even peak oil theory does not work as you describe it. There will be no $200 oil by Jan. And by all indications, oil might find it hard to sustain $100 per barrel as the US and Europe slide into recession.
 
Well there would be an increase in various fuel taxes. However according to page 28 of the Green Shift Handbook there is no increase in gasoline taxes for the forecast period. Apparently, truckers, farmers, manufacturers, all have to make cuts, except private drivers....who are responsible for nearly one sixth of Canada's carbon emissions. That seems like a political choice to me. However, you are right that the merits of carbon taxes still hold.

The carbon tax will still apply to gasoline, and diesel. It is federal excise taxes that are being phased out.

Diesel isn't the saviour, but it certainly can help. It emits more carbon per litre (http://www.epa.gov/oms/climate/420f05001.htm) but diesel engines are disproportionately efficient to the amount of carbon dioxide they produce. Diesel engines are roughly 20-30% more fuel efficient while pumping out only 10% more CO2. There are strong thermodynamic reasons for this....namely the much higher T and P of combustion inside a diesel engine.

If this is true, then diesels will still be competitive after the phase-in of the carbon tax puts the two fuels on an equal footing wrt tax per unit of CO2e emitted. You're suggesting the government pick winners.

I have a cousin who works at Walmart and is working with them on engineering a more efficient logistics flow. However, the challenge here is not the Walmarts of the world. You and I both know that trucking is largely an independent industry. To achieve the kind of fleet wide efficiencies we are talking about, we would have to change the nature of that business....that would mean significant consolidation away from the owner-operator rig. Or perhaps moving away from long distance trucking altogether in favour of rail. That's okay with me, but politicians should be honest about the end state here. And the idea of increased diesel prices prompting action also does not jive with the fact that many truckers have just as much incentive now with our record oil prices to make those changes but aren't doing so. They can't afford it. Instead of a fuel tax, a rebate for efficiency upgrades to the rigs might actually do more.

A few points:
-the big logistics players represent a large percentage of energy consumed in transportation.
-independents, if they cannot afford high ROI investments in their equipment (we're talking payback of 3-5 years), probably shouldn't be in business. It would be relatively easy to make the business case for a loan to finance any such investment.
-I don't think we should worry too much about long-haul trucking becoming less prevalent. This industry is subsidized to a large extent through the punishing amount of wear and tear on publicly maintained highways when intermodal freight relies much more on privately maintained infrastructure. I'm not sure if rail diesel is subject to the same excise tax, but if so, I don't know how you could call that anything but a subsidy for long-haul trucking. It amounts to government picking winners...
-I don't like the idea of providing rebates for equipment purchases. It smacks of government picking winning technologies, industries, firms, etc. when it is notoriously bad at it. I could more easily support government loans to finance high ROI retrofits if private financing is difficult to obtain, but logically, that shouldn't be the case.

By that same token, if the market is already doing the job, then why the need for carbon taxes? Higher oil prices have done more for incentivizing fuel consumption than Dion's carbon tax could achieve in half a decade. It's the pace of increase here. Basically, Dion is adding about 17 dollars a barrel in about 4 years....over and above any price increases in the market. That's a significant stress on any energy intensive active.

Carbon taxes are great because the allow us to use the proceeds to lower taxes that are incredibly damaging to the economy. Corporate income taxes in an open economy like Canada lowers the return on capital. Since capital will go elsewhere if it cannot achieve the world rate of return, it lowers investment in Canada and thus jobs. Not to mention that wages for workers tends to be decreased as a result of corporate taxes, making them quite regressive. Quite bad for the economy, all around. Personal income taxes lower the incentive to work, leading to less work effort and less incentive to save and invest. These effects are also quite bad for the economy. Overall, a carbon tax would allow us to reduce more economically damaging taxation.

What does Dion plan to do if next year's hurricane season suddenly sends oil prices with his carbon tax to 160 dollars a barrel equivalent...a very real possibility. A carbon tax will simply apply pressure to shift the demand curve leftward. However, given that most companies won't have adjusted to the new taxes yet, during the lag period, they will experience higher energy costs that inevitably will impact their bottom line. For example, Canada already taxes aviation fuels at some of the highest rates in the world. Dion plans to add to that. What is his plan, when this contributes to bankrupting Westjet if oil prices spike dramatically like this year...next summer?

If oil spikes during hurricane season, as it has for years now, there will only be relative minor economic effects, as it is temporary, and caused as much by runs on the gas station due to perceived scarcity than any real shortage.

Canadians will continue to fly. Westjet will not go bankrupt before much less efficient carriers go under. Fares will rise, as they should, and the current oversupply of airliner capacity will diminish as languishing, inefficient players go out of business around the world. Predictable price increases are much less likely to cause financial difficulties than random price fluctuations, which then require hedging to manage the risk. If Westjet were to go bankrupt, it wouldn't be because of a couple cents per litre change in the price of aviation fuel made known months and months in advance.

It seems that you're scaremongering, for some strange reason. What I predict will happen: the fares will rise (or new fees will be levied) to reflect the new level of taxation. Airlines that can increase their energy efficiency will be more profitable. In other words, more or less the same regime as we have now, except passengers pay a bit more, while taking home larger paycheques. The increased price of fuel pushes energy-saving investments a little closer toward the cut-off ROI/payback/IRR needed to justify the capital outlay.

It's not really rocket science, nor is it a huge, abrupt change in the economy. A government of Canada report, commissioned by the Harper government, estimates that the economic effect of a fully-phased in carbon tax would essentially be noise on overall GDP numbers with a slight negative effect at first becoming a slight positive effect over about a five year period.

I agree that 3 billion a year isn't much. But it's question of what they would cut. They aren't saying. Eliminating the accelerated capital cost allowance would only save 6 billion over 4 years. And I agree, that should be canned. But I'd like to see Dion pledge to cut the 4 billion in spending for Quebec and still keep those votes. Heck if he pledged that cut, he'd get my vote instantly! Still leaves a 2 billion hole, though that's fairly small......

The accelerated CCA is not a bad thing for the economy, except that it was relatively sudden and brief, making it hard to plan around.

The $4 billion in infrastructure for Quebec doesn't need to be cut, but it can be their share of the Liberal's proposed new infrastructure spending. $2 billion is indeed small, given estimated revenues for the period in the scope of the costing is over a trillion dollars. I would support the phase-out of the child-sports tax credit, the transit pass tax credit and the textbook tax credit. They seem overly cumbersome to administer vs. other ways of channeling the funding: tax cuts for families, increased infrastructure funding, and new student income supplements bundled with GST rebates.
 
It's challenging being a centrist...although my debates with afransen are convincing of some of the merits of the Green Shift, what I saw in the rest of the Liberal platform is a little disconcerting....

I am worried about their platform on defence and arctic sovereignty just as we are entering a time period of major demand on these files with the North West Passage opening up the Vancouver Olympics coming in 2010, and major demands to replace old equipment. This will require significant resources for the CF. And the political will to explain to Canadians why we will need to spend billions on new ships, SAR aircraft, next generation fighters, UAVs, rebuilding of base infrastructure, etc. Put in a commitment of just 60 million to treat PTSD doesn't begin to address the rest of those concerns, although providing for PTSD is certainly appreciated. Hopefully, their commitment to 'involving Canadian industry' is not going to turn out like the Sea King replacement which probably won't see IOC till probably about 2012...17 years late...after 500 million in penalties...and over a dozen injured personnel (just lucky for avoiding fatalities so far)...

I also strongly disagreed with the court challenges program. Apparently they want to bring that back and double the funding. Something about suing the government...and by extension me the taxpayer just does not sit right.

I find fault with their immigration policies. And I say this as an immigrant. The Conservative policy of empowering the minister to fast track specific groups was the right one. Why would we not fast track certain professionals we need? Instead, a rigid adherence to the point system gets you the labour you need, but years late. And once they get here they are simply dumped on the cities and provinces. While the Liberals commit lots of money to helping immigrants, they seem to have missed the mark on the one issue that counts....forcing professional bodies to accept foreign credentials and helping immigrants get over that ridiculous 'Canadian experience' requirement.

And I am worried about their foreign policy. They seemed poised to bring back Chretien's rank anti-american attitudes and his coddling of Chinese communists. This is one thing I did appreciate about the Conservatives, a principled foreign policy....no more of this moral equivalency between 'freedom fighters' (Hamas and Hezbollah) and a democratic country (Israel). What was really appalling was their sympathy for Hezbollah during the 2006 war, just so Canada could maintain a 'balanced view'.

Yet, there are many things I do like in their platform, commitment to taking on climate change, promise to restore arts funding, fulfilling the Kelowna accord, increased funding for embassies and consulates, more money for research, national transit strategy and national infrastructure fund, etc.

So it's a toss up. I'll still have to wait to see the Conservative platform....or resort to my Green protest vote!
 
Keith, I'll concede many of those points. I agree that the CF require substantial investments in equipment. I'm not convinced that Harper has or will provide that. I've seen analyzes of his spending plan for the CF that indicate his supposedly huge spending plan was actually just normal budgetary growth in CF funding. I won't claim to understand it, but Paul Wells was covering it earlier this year IIRC.

I think the court challenges program is necessary in some form. It is wrong that justice can be denied simply because the government has impossibly deep pockets and all the time in the world. It is much like OMA malpractice insurance which defends the indefensible in terms of malpractice cases simply because they have the resources to ensure that the claimant dies or is ruined financially before a matter is decided in court.

It's about accountability in government.

I'm torn between several parties' immigration platforms. There are legitimate complaints against both schemes, and I'd hoped there would be more room for debate and compromise, rather than brinksmanship. As far as recognizing foreign credentials, I thought they did make a commitment on that file. I don't know about 'forcing' (I'm not sure that would actually work/be terribly wise, besides).

As for foreign policy, perhaps you might be right, but I don't get the same impressions you do. It will be interesting to see whether Harper adopts to a more left-wing president come 2009. Is his position parroting US positions, or is he comfortable being even further to right of the US administration in terms of foreign policy?



To me, it isn't even really a possibility to consider voting for Harper. His rather sporadic platform thus far hasn't really included anything I strongly support, and plenty of things which are out-and-out stupid, including cutting the diesel excise tax, banning banana-flavoured tobacco, and making it possible to throw 14 year olds into jail for life (are we Texas all of a sudden?) unless we're in Quebec (two standards of justice--inexcusable).

Before any of that, his style of management these past two years is far from impressive. His best ministers are leaving office, the ones remaining are mostly window dressing (the invisible Enviro minister, Rona Ambrose), intensely partisan, dysfunctional parliament (and especially committees), and absurd political brinksmanship despite lacking anything resembling a strong mandate.
 
An interesting take....

PUBLICATION: National Post
DATE: 2008.09.24
EDITION: National
SECTION: Letters
PAGE: A15
DATELINE: BARRING A MIRACLE
BYLINE: Stephen Le Drew
SOURCE: National Post
WORD COUNT: 576

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A beating is what the Liberals need

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Barring a miracle -- that intermittent visitor to political campaigns -- the Liberals are going to take a drubbing in this election -- which is exactly what they need in order to survive as a viable national force.

Sounds odd, doesn't it? Getting your clock cleaned in order to carry on? Nevertheless, a beating is exactly what the Grits desperately require, or else the Liberal Party of Canada could face the same fate as the once mighty Liberal Party of Great Britain, now relegated to the trash heap.

The immediate causes of the Liberals' campaign trouble are myriad: a leader who doesn't resonate with the public; a platform that is, depending on whom you talk to, either incomprehensible, or just plain dumb; a team that seems to have all its oars pulling on the same side of the boat -- the list goes on. And as anyone who has been involved in campaigns can attest, once a campaign gets bogged down, troubles that would normally be overlooked metastasize into a deadly condition.

Still, campaign workers will soldier on for three more weeks, fighting with vigour, delivering votes and reaping something from this disaster. But the real work begins after the polls close.

One hopes that in defeat, the Liberals will realize that they must do more than paint Stephen Harper as a Bush clone. They must do more than chant that the Conservatives will steer Canada inalterably toward its demise. The Tories are following a small-l liberal agenda because they know that the majority of Canadians will not vote for a right-wing platform. Conservative commentators like Theo Caldwell have all but admitted in these pages that the Conservatives

have taken the guts of the Liberal party for their own.

To regain their relevance, Liberals will have to think beyond their traditional tenets, created in the 1950s and '60s. These have served Canadians well, but have by now either been fulfilled or passed by. Liberals must decide what it means to be a Liberal in the 21st century, what needs to be achieved in the new financial, industrial and communications fields and what needs to be done to allow citizens to flourish in this new society.

After that awesome task is finished, the Liberal party must figure out how to get those ideas across to Canadians and give them a reason to vote Liberal. Let's face it: When you ask people in the party why anyone should vote Liberal this time around, you usually get an answer that is neither inspiring nor plausible. It's the same shopworn "values" stuff that the Liberals tried to sell last time, only to receive their comeuppance. The Liberal party must create a new ethos and convert it into an understandable mantra. The party's very survival depends on it.

In this call for renewal, I do not mean to dishearten the hard-working people of all ages who are pounding in signs, looking up addresses, sending e-mails and knocking on doors under the Liberal banner. Keep it up, for you are vital to the political process. One must fight on against all odds -- look where it landed Stephen Harper!

But come Oct. 15, the loyal Liberal activists across Canada must think hard and begin the process of recalibrating the party. They are up to the task.

-Stephen LeDrew, a Toronto lawyer and a radio host on CFRB 1010, was president of the Liberal Party of Canada from 1998 to 2003
 
I must admit I find it irksome that the Conservatives haven't released their platform yet....instead they are merely criticizing the Liberal platform. I may have quibbles with the Green Shift but at least the Libs put it our well in advance of the election.
 
I think many Canadians off all parties were very excited about who the Liberals will pick and they were limelight during that leadership convention.

The Liberals could have picked a very good leader and could have won a lot of momentum.


Typically they screw things up.
 
I find the reports of the total demise of the Liberal Party of Canada to be more than overreaching, but a bit hysterical. If the Liberals lose seats, they lose seats, but to say the party is being obliterated when its not that far behind Conservatives on the whole, that's not journalism. Its purely op/ed.
 
I find the reports of the total demise of the Liberal Party of Canada to be more than overreaching, but a bit hysterical. If the Liberals lose seats, they lose seats, but to say the party is being obliterated when its not that far behind Conservatives on the whole, that's not journalism. Its purely op/ed.

Actually, the way things are going, they might just end up like Kim Campbell: 16% of the popular vote....2 seats in parliament.

Once your popular vote declines into the mid to low 20s, the seat count starts dropping precipitously fast.
 
The Libs won't be Kim Campbell'ed.

I agree that the Liberals need to restructure, become both more grassroots oriented, more unified (it is essentially a federation of provincial associations) and adjust to the new fundraising regime. On the other hand, I think their platform is the best one they have produced in some time.

What I think will be interesting, especially if Harper wins a majority, is whether the Conservative party can survive without blowing apart. Harper, so far, has managed to avoid a major policy convention and thus has been more or less able to dictate the CPC agenda. He was able to do this because the party was willing to swallow it due to the precariousness of their government. A policy convention will see a show-down between the so-con/far right factions and the blue Liberal 905 suburbanite and soft-nationalist factions. It would be a miracle if one of those were not alienated by that process.

Essentially, the Conservatives may either splinter the right or alienate the centre. Harper has been able to walk that tightrope through absolute control of the government and the party. When he no longer has absolute control, it will be interesting to see what will happen. I find it highly unlikely that the conservatives will have no one of their right flank for long if they govern in the centre.
 
The Libs won't be Kim Campbell'ed.

Not quite...but given their poll numbers and the trends...they might make a good second for that scenario.

I agree that the Liberals need to restructure, become both more grassroots oriented, more unified (it is essentially a federation of provincial associations) and adjust to the new fundraising regime. On the other hand, I think their platform is the best one they have produced in some time.

I second that. All those years in government made them out of touch with the grassroots. It's the exact reason the Conservatives are doing so well now. It's most apparent when it comes to fundraising.

What I think will be interesting, especially if Harper wins a majority, is whether the Conservative party can survive without blowing apart. Harper, so far, has managed to avoid a major policy convention and thus has been more or less able to dictate the CPC agenda. He was able to do this because the party was willing to swallow it due to the precariousness of their government. A policy convention will see a show-down between the so-con/far right factions and the blue Liberal 905 suburbanite and soft-nationalist factions. It would be a miracle if one of those were not alienated by that process.

Essentially, the Conservatives may either splinter the right or alienate the centre. Harper has been able to walk that tightrope through absolute control of the government and the party. When he no longer has absolute control, it will be interesting to see what will happen. I find it highly unlikely that the conservatives will have no one of their right flank for long if they govern in the centre.

I wonder too if the CPC will implode. Then again, I can't say, I'd be sorry to see them go. I liked the old PC party. They would have been a true alternative to the Liberals. But sadly for them post-Mulroney, election would have been impossible out west, essentially ensuring they would never get elected. So far it looks like Harper has been holding it together....and slowly moving the CPC more to the centre. And I suspect they'll keep doing that and it will become easier as the west grows and becomes more urbanized. Increasingly, western cities are having the same challenges as eastern cities, so I predict that the CPC will have to become a more urban party over time....or they will implode back into the old PC and Reform versions.
 
Frankly, the urban and rural interests in this country can never be truly reconciled. If the Tories attempt to take up urban values, they will either fail (see John Tory), or the will leave a vacuum to be filled in rural ridings. Beyond that, there is a built in bias against urban areas in our electoral system, so I don't see the CPC trying to venture much deeper than the suburbs.
 

Back
Top