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Canada removes U.S., Israel from torture watchlist

allabootmatt said:
Indeed he's not. My (dumb) mistake. Christian Arab: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salim_Joubran
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Whew! Better not let any Maronites see your mistake, or they might massacre your entire family.

Maronites - the only people who have a bloodlust for muslim arabs that exceeds that of Likudniks.

If I might draw a parallel: Maronite is to arab muslim in Israel as KKK member is to black person in the USA.
 
voxpopulicosmicum said:
Maronites - the only people who have a bloodlust for muslim arabs that exceeds that of Likudniks.
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Good news. I have a number of friends either Maronite Christians or voters for the Likud party. I have seen all possible permutations and combinations of members of one or both groups with Arab Muslim friends, all in a room. (OK, there is a small number of permutations and combinations. Like, 3. But still.)

I am pleased to be able to tell you that, through great efforts on all sides, all bloodlust was curbed. Later reports even confirmed that some of the above were flesh and blood -- yes, real human beings. I am not making this up.
 
^Obviously I was using hyperbole and generalization to make a point, and I do not actually believe that all Maronites want to exterminate all arab muslims from the Levant. Having said that, my glib response was a reflection of the original glib inference that Israeli arabs would get a fair shake in the Israeli court system because of the existence of an arab member of the supreme court.

Fer chrissakes, the Maronites are the people that the bloodthirsty Ariel Sharon hired to exterminate two refugee camps full of Palestinians. I can't imagine that the presence of a Maronite on the Israeli supreme court would be anything but a source of fear for an arab muslim.
 
voxpopulicosmicum said:
^Obviously I was using hyperbole and generalization to make a point, and I do not actually believe that all Maronites want to exterminate all arab muslims from the Levant.
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Sorry, I know ... still, it was kind of over the top. Imagine saying "Better not let any Arabs see your mistake, or they might massacre your entire family", or some such. Not so cool.

Fer chrissakes, the Maronites are the people that the bloodthirsty Ariel Sharon hired to exterminate two refugee camps full of Palestinians.
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I'm not here to debate history, certainly, but I believe that the group which murdered Palestinians in the Sabra & Shatila and Burj ul Barajneh camps was the military wing of the Phalangists. Not "Maronites" at large. I'm not sure it's productive to assimilate an entire ethnic/religious group to the actions of a specific political and military formation.

Having said that, my glib response was a reflection of the original glib inference that Israeli arabs would get a fair shake in the Israeli court system because of the existence of an arab member of the supreme court. (...)
I can't imagine that the presence of a Maronite on the Israeli supreme court would be anything but a source of fear for an arab muslim.
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Ah -- sorry. A discussion of the relative fairness or merits of the Israeli Supreme Court is, I agree, a whole other ball of wax. I didn't realise that this was part of that. The idea that, Justice Joubran's presence on the Israeli Supreme Court constitutes discrimination against Arab Muslims, and that on account of his ethnic background, is an intriguing and novel theory.
 
News to me that Israel is one of our "closest allies",the US, I can see. I miss the days when Canada took a much more neutral stance on the geopolitics in that region, but that flew out the window with Steve "measured response" Harper
 
ganjavih said:
Israel's use of torture is well-known... they don't even try to hide it.
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Canada's use of torture is well-known ... but we are trying to hide it. Is that better?

http://www.canada.com/topics/news/n...=8ff6b9cb-476c-4510-927a-d3879b696009&k=40559

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/01/world/americas/01canada.html

Only we do it by handing 'em over to others to torture for us; and these cases are happening now, not twenty years ago.

Another difference: in Israel, those claiming torture can go to the courts and get a fair shake ... not so those we torture, as our Charter of Rights doesn't apply to them:

http://www.cordweekly.com/cordweekly/myweb.php?hls=10034&news_id=1634

Justice Anne Mactavish determined that the legal obligations associated with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms cannot be made to apply to Taliban fighters who have been seized by Canadian soldiers, essentially because the militants are being captured on foreign soil.

...

The investigation arose as the result of complaints put forward by Amnesty International and the B.C. Civil Liberties Association, who have been critical of the way that detainees have been shifted into the custody of Afghan police. Amnesty International has proclaimed that by continually transferring prisoners over to local authorities, Canadian troops are complicit in any abuse that may consequently occur.

The transfers were halted in November 2007, after it was revealed that Afghan police had beaten a detainee unconscious with an electrical cable and a hose. This case of torture was uncovered during a surprise inspection of an Afghan jail, conducted by Canadian diplomats in accordance with an agreement, established between Canada and the Afghan government, that allows for the inspections. The transfers were then resumed again in February.
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In Israel, the gov't established an inquiry that uncovered wrongdoing, as stated in your article. The Israeli Supreme Court then banned use of torture techniques and the report was released to the public.

In contrast, in Canada the gov't is blocking inquiry:

http://www.canada.com/topics/news/n...=8ff6b9cb-476c-4510-927a-d3879b696009&k=40559

OTTAWA - Canada's independent Military Police Complaints Commission says it will initiate a rarely used public-interest process to probe a complaint about the handling of Afghan detainees by Canadian military police because its year-long internal investigation is being stymied by government intransigence.

The commission said Wednesday it was forced to change course and activate its subpoena power after the government backed the refusal of the Foreign Affairs Department and Correctional Service of Canada to provide the quasi-judicial commission access to uncensored material.

"The principal difficulty which has given rise to this decision has been the government's refusal to provide the commission with full access to relevant documents and information," Peter Tinsley, chairman of the commission, said in a statement, citing the two departments by name. "Ordering a public interest hearing is necessary to ensure a full investigation of the grave allegations raised in this complaint."
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So in summary, Israel had torture, an unbiased report uncovered it, and the courts acted. Canada has torture, an unbiased report is blocked by the government, and the courts cannot act because our Charter doesn't apply to these prisoners.

Seems to hardly lie in our mouths to criticize others when we are doing the same, or worse, and that right now.
 
SeanTrans said:
News to me that Israel is one of our "closest allies",the US, I can see. I miss the days when Canada took a much more neutral stance on the geopolitics in that region, but that flew out the window with Steve "measured response" Harper
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I'm not sure how one would measure that kind of thing. DFAIT (is it still DFAIT?) has a page up on Canada-Israel bilateral relations.

For what it's worth, Israel is one of four countries and two regions with which Canada has "free trade" agreements. After the U.S., and Mexico when CUSFTA became NAFTA, Israel became the first country with which Canada initiated "free trade" (followed closely by Chile), pursuant to an agreement negotiated and implemented by a Liberal government under Jean Chrétien (and the Bloc Québécois sitting as official opposition).

Edit: I'm not really arguing that Israel is one of our "closest allies" -- only that, given the imprecision of such a term and the relatively strong long-standing commercial and diplomatic relations between the two countries, that kind of a public announcement is more the political hyperbole we associate with diplomacy-speak than a relativistic statement of who we want to invite to our birthday party and who we don't.
 
SeanTrans said:
News to me that Israel is one of our "closest allies",the US, I can see. I miss the days when Canada took a much more neutral stance on the geopolitics in that region, but that flew out the window with Steve "measured response" Harper
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Actually rhetoric aside, Canada's position on Israel hasn't changed that much since Harper came to power.
 
It most certainly has. The Liberals would never have been the first country in the world to praise Israel's operation in Lebanon.
 
I said "rhetorically." Does anyone really think Harper's cheap words really made one iota of difference in terms of the events in the Middle East?
 
No, of course not. Our policies have never had much of an effect on events in the Middle East. But the words of the Prime Minister have a great deal of effect on Canada's foreign policy.
 
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