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Canada and the World

AlvinofDiaspar said:
From WSJ:

www.wsj.com

Opinion | Canada Is a Military Free-Rider In NATO

Ottawa still spends only a pathetic 1.38% of GDP on defense.
www.wsj.com www.wsj.com

Not wrong there. The funniest thing is that it isn't like we have any issues with deficit spending anyways.

AoD
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"NATO targets are optional...." - partisans who think other targets are sacrosanct....

Fundamentally, this country has a terrible problem with commitment. They only seem applicable when a party's politics lines up and even then it's not sure. Chretien and Martin sign Official Development Assistance and Kyoto climate targets and then proceed to do nothing to meet them. Harper signs on for NATO spending targets. Proceeds to do nothing to meet them. We're a nation who doesn't just accept free riding. It's become a core tenet of Canadian foreign policy.
 
kEiThZ said:
"NATO targets are optional...." - partisans who think other targets are sacrosanct....

Fundamentally, this country has a terrible problem with commitment. They only seem applicable when a party's politics lines up and even then it's not sure. Chretien and Martin sign Official Development Assistance and Kyoto climate targets and then proceed to do nothing to meet them. Harper signs on for NATO spending targets. Proceeds to do nothing to meet them. We're a nation who doesn't just accept free riding. It's become a core tenet of Canadian foreign policy.
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The core tenet of Canadian foreign policy is to convince our electorate of the historical narrative of our influence (regardless of whether it is real now - see: UN Security Council seat debacle - soft power eh?) while doing the absolute minimum (if not below it). Though it is also questionable as to whether our electorate actually cared overall (answer: they don't - and I certainly wouldn't trust how much understanding they have of the underlying issues to begin with - which is why successive governments all got away with it).

The amount of apologia and indignity you get when you point this reality out is kind of unreal. See, it is more of a sin to pop the BS bubble than to BS - precisely what happens when your national identity is based on historical achievements, not current reality. We have been running on cruise for way too long.

AoD
 
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AlvinofDiaspar said:
The amount of apologia and indignity you get when you point this reality out is kind of unreal. See, it is more of a sin to pop the BS bubble than to BS - precisely what happens when your national identity is based on historical achievements, not current reality. We have been running on cruise for way too long.
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Well put. And as a working national security professional, it hurts my brain to talk to the average Canadian who has a ridiculously distorted view of those accomplishments, where Canada currently stands and a rather binary test for all kinds of foreign policy issues, usually pre-determined by their political bias.

AlvinofDiaspar said:
The core tenet of Canadian foreign policy is to convince our electorate of the historical narrative of our influence...
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Reminds me of this other country trying to rampage through Eastern Europe right now, based on some narrative of the glory days....

At least we're not threatening. More entertaining. More Belarus. Than Russia.
 
kEiThZ said:
Well put. And as a working national security professional, it hurts my brain to talk to the average Canadian who has a ridiculously distorted view of those accomplishments, where Canada currently stands and a rather binary test for all kinds of foreign policy issues, usually pre-determined by their political bias.



Reminds me of this other country trying to rampage through Eastern Europe right now, based on some narrative of the glory days....

At least we're not threatening. More entertaining. More Belarus. Than Russia.
Click to expand...

If I am mean (and I am) - I'd say it's like us going back again and again to the Leafs winning the Stanley Cup 67 and telling everyone we're No. 1.

(waiting for someone to criticize my patriotism just about now)

AoD
 
kEiThZ said:
Apparently, lobbying for Bombardier to get the maritime surveillance contract wasn't enough. Doug now wants a piece of shipbuilding.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1679510621925122049
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I guess frigates like the size of the new CSC program could theoretically be built on the great lakes as they are small enough to fit through the Seaway. In some ways perhaps it could make sense as it is closer to Canada's industrial base. I wonder where Doug is thinking this could happen.
 
afransen said:
I guess frigates like the size of the new CSC program could theoretically be built on the great lakes as they are small enough to fit through the Seaway. In some ways perhaps it could make sense as it is closer to Canada's industrial base. I wonder where Doug is thinking this could happen.
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Collingwood, obviously! Oh wait...
 
AlvinofDiaspar said:
From WSJ:

www.wsj.com

Opinion | Canada Is a Military Free-Rider In NATO

Ottawa still spends only a pathetic 1.38% of GDP on defense.
www.wsj.com www.wsj.com

Not wrong there. The funniest thing is that it isn't like we have any issues with deficit spending anyways.

AoD
Click to expand...

Turns out when I was prescient when I said Poland could supplant Canada on the world stage....

“NATO needs members that keep their commitments, and G-7 nations have an obligation to lead the way. If Canada doesn’t want to play that role, the G-7 should consider a replacement. Poland, which now spends 3.9% of GDP on defense, would be a candidate.”
Click to expand...

Setting aside my passport, I just don't see the point of these forums giving Canada a seat. What leadership do we actually offer beyond rhetoric? And any resource commitment is usually made begrudgingly because of pressure from DC or London. At least Poland would be a substantial voice for former Eastern Bloc states.
 
kEiThZ said:
Turns out when I was prescient when I said Poland could supplant Canada on the world stage....



Setting aside my passport, I just don't see the point of these forums giving Canada a seat. What leadership do we actually offer beyond rhetoric? And any resource commitment is usually made begrudgingly because of pressure from DC or London. At least Poland would be a substantial voice for former Eastern Bloc states.
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Canada is still over 3x the size of Poland economically. I think Canada needs to pull up its socks, but Canada also shouldn't be sold short as the 10th largest economy in the world. I could see a stronger case for adding Australia or S Korea.
 
AlvinofDiaspar said:
If I am mean (and I am) - I'd say it's like us going back again and again to the Leafs winning the Stanley Cup 67 and telling everyone we're No. 1.

(waiting for someone to criticize my patriotism just about now)

AoD
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What strikes me as so strange about Canadian mythology is how contradictory it is. It was Canada's immense martial contributions in WWI and WWII that earned us respect as an independent power. And all that peacekeeping that is heavily mythologized way only possible because credible military force was brought to bear. Yet, somehow our national myth has evolved about us being different from the US ("We're peacekeepers."), while literally ignoring everything involved in the accomplishments which supposedly differentiates us.
 
afransen said:
Canada is still over 3x the size of Poland economically. I think Canada needs to pull up its socks, but Canada also shouldn't be sold short as the 10th largest economy in the world. I could see a stronger case for adding Australia or S Korea.
Click to expand...

I don't see us getting kicked out out G7 (economic) or NATO - but whether we have any pull is another question (what are you going to do, act like Turkey when no one listens to us, or France?). The real issue is we were shut out of AUKUS - the apex of the military alliance.

kEiThZ said:
What strikes me as so strange about Canadian mythology is how contradictory it is. It was Canada's immense martial contributions in WWI and WWII that earned us respect as an independent power. And all that peacekeeping that is heavily mythologized way only possible because credible military force was brought to bear. Yet, somehow our national myth has evolved about us being different from the US ("We're peacekeepers."), while literally ignoring everything involved in the accomplishments which supposedly differentiates us.
Click to expand...

It's a little bit schizoid - the break might have happened during the Vietnam War? (Australia was in it, we weren't - and socially we were definitely anti-war as a country at that point). The unpopularity of the US also see it framed as an "Imperial" power (academia in particular) that doesn't jive with how we saw ourselves. Also I think we have a reflexive national identity based on who we are not - the Americans - that drives a lot of our thinking.

AoD
 
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afransen said:
Canada is still over 3x the size of Poland economically. I think Canada needs to pull up its socks, but Canada also shouldn't be sold short as the 10th largest economy in the world. I could see a stronger case for adding Australia or S Korea.
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Talking shops are about what you bring to the table. Not who you are. What does a large branch plant economy that doesn't contribute anything without serious lecturing from Washington, actually bring something to the table? If you want to get something from Canada, you ask the US to lobby for it. Realistically, it's the only opinion that Canadian politicians actually respect. That's how you deal with colonies.
 
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