Cabbagetown

[Admiral Beez]

Hello everyone - just finished reading through this thread, and I'm curious to know how you would all feel about another independant cafe in your midst?

Organic fair-trade coffee and tea, with made in-house baked goods. Open and airy, with a fireplace to warm up by or a nook to people watch in.
There would be books you could read if you forgot to bring one, and locally crafted goods + art displayed and sold in-store.

Do you think a community involved business like this is lacking in Cabbagetown, or would it not be welcomed?

Elizabeth

I've lived in Cabbagetown for almost ten years now, and my wife and I shop on Parliament daily. I have to say, if there's one thing we're missing in CT it's a nice, chain bookstore like Book City. We've got tons of spots now for a coffee (Starbucks, Jet Fuel, Daniel et Daniel, Tims, Coffee Time, etc.), but nowhere where you can buy a book, though we do have the International News place for some magazines. So, if you were considering a cafe, make it a book shop / cafe combo. When I lived in Fredericton NB we had a great book shop called Reid's Newsstand & Cafe which sold lots of books and magazines along with a great latte.

 

[mgl]

There was an independent coffee shop with lots of baked goods and sandwiches where the new TD is being built. It went out of business before Starbucks arrived. It had a huge space which was more than it needed.

I live in Cabbagetown and like bookstores but I'm not sure how a bookstore would do. It's hard for independent bookstores to make a go of it now. If I was going to open one, I'd pick a neighbourhood that had more foot traffic.

I'd like more restaurants with decent take out that I can pick up. While we frequent several local restaurants far too much, there just isn't that much variety. We could really use a good Italian restaurant. Perhaps a Thai place with good noodles. Maybe something quirky like Magic Oven.

 

[whatever]

Sounds great, but I wonder if Jet Fuel isn't already serving that niche tho. There might be room for another independent, but you'd have to hang out at Jet Fuel for awhile to get a feel for what they offer, and then either try to do their thing better, or come up with something distinct and different

 

[adma]

Given Jet Fuel's rep for surliness, it might not be too difficult to set up something "friendlier" a la Alternative Grounds...

 

[Cafe Novo]

Sounds great, but I wonder if Jet Fuel isn't already serving that niche tho. There might be room for another independent, but you'd have to hang out at Jet Fuel for awhile to get a feel for what they offer, and then either try to do their thing better, or come up with something distinct and different

It would be quite different - I apologize if I gave the impression that we were more in the planning, pipe dream phase. It's fairly far along, I've been working on the plan for about 8 months now.

As far as I know Jet Fuel doesn't serve organic or fair-trade, they don't offer non-espresso coffe, nor tea. We certainly will! We'd be more like Alternative Grounds, but cleaner. Less reggae, more open airy space.

Does anyone remember the name of the independent cafe that used to be where TD is? I'm curious to know more about it!

The space we're looking at isn't huge, but much bigger than Jet Fuel for sure. It's two stories, decent rent, and a gorgeous, charming space.
We do have a section of the upper level planne for books and magazines, and we were thinking of trying to strike up a deal with a somewhat local independant bookstore to stock some of their used books.

I love books, and would love to own a bookstore but it's not a feasible business anymore. They are shutting down everywhere, even with the foot traffic (Roncesvalles).

Thanks everyone for your responses - if it works out that we get the space we are looking at, I'll keep you all updated!

 

[Dilla]

Does anyone remember the name of the independent cafe that used to be where TD is? I'm curious to know more about it!

It was called JavaVille. It was pretty big, and never got that full. Coffee was kept in large pump-thermos', and there were about 5 different coffees available. Customers bought a cup and severed themselves. There was some food on order, but I don't remember ever ordering anything other than a brownie.

If that place suffered from anything, it was being too large, which made it seem empty and less welcoming for it. There wasn't a lot of atmosphere. There was a little sushi place attached to it on the North end, right beside the organic shop.

While i go to Jet Fuel sometimes, it is almost purposefully off-putting to first time customer. They don't even have a menu or price list for crying out loud. Then they roll their eyes, and/or get pissed off when someone orders something they don't have. Doye.

 

[Dilla]

I'd like more restaurants with decent take out that I can pick up. While we frequent several local restaurants far too much, there just isn't that much variety. We could really use a good Italian restaurant. Perhaps a Thai place with good noodles. Maybe something quirky like Magic Oven.

Amen, brother.

However, if you're willing to walk a bit, you might be surprised of what's just south of us. There's a Magic Oven on Queen, just a few doors east of Parliament. Also, this place is said to be one of the best Thai joints in the city(takeout and delivery only). It's on Parliament, just south of Dundas. Sadly, I can't think of any Italian. That would be nice.

 

[urbandreamer]

The East side needs several Tequila Bookworm-style places. I could see T-B being successful on Yonge Street near Ryerson, maybe Cabbagetown as well.

 

[UserNameToronto]

I recall a place called Chapter 13 on the west side of Parliament north of Carlton. It was basically just a house made into a bar, with living room style furniture, a fireplace, and lots of games and old novels. Shabby chic. Dirt cheap. Like Tequila Bookworm, but without the live music. [edit - I typed this in, but urbandreamer beat me to the punch by a minute or two! I agree that TB's model is great and would patronize an eastside equivalent.]

I liked it a lot, but it was never really busy--I think Cabbagetowners are really loyal to the established businesses (HoP in this case).

Another place that might have a similar vibe is the Pie Shack in the Beach. So cosy.

 

[Admiral Beez]

There was an independent coffee shop with lots of baked goods and sandwiches where the new TD is being built. It went out of business before Starbucks arrived. It had a huge space which was more than it needed.

I live in Cabbagetown and like bookstores but I'm not sure how a bookstore would do. It's hard for independent bookstores to make a go of it now. If I was going to open one, I'd pick a neighbourhood that had more foot traffic.

Litteri (sp?) and Java Ville failed because they had way to much space dedicated to seating. And, they did not sell books, and are thus not applicable to my suggestion.

I 100% agree, an independent bookshop would not succeed in Cabbagetown, especially since they usually focus on used books or niche markets. For a bookstore we need chainstore, either a Book City or even better a Coles store, like at Queen and Lee in the Beach(es). I shop online at Chapters, but often have my books sent to Queen & Lee so that I can get free shipping, and while I'm there picking up my book I buy other things too. So, if I was looking to open a bookstore in CT, I would be buying a B'City or Coles franchise - independent bookshops are a dying breed.

 

[Cafe Novo]

How much is too much?

Can you recall approx. how many seats they had in both Javaville + Lettieri?

One thing I personally find hugely frustrating in this city are great cafes with zero seating. I avoid them when I can find somewhere with fairly good coffee, and someone to sit and relax.
When I go out for coffee, I pay more not only for the product, but for the atmosphere and environment. I like to be able to get my money's worth, personally.

Anyone else feel this way, or is it a to-go strictly area?

 

[Peepers]

Can you recall approx. how many seats they had in both Javaville + Lettieri?

One thing I personally find hugely frustrating in this city are great cafes with zero seating. I avoid them when I can find somewhere with fairly good coffee, and someone to sit and relax.
When I go out for coffee, I pay more not only for the product, but for the atmosphere and environment. I like to be able to get my money's worth, personally.

Anyone else feel this way, or is it a to-go strictly area?

I agree. When I buy a coffee and baked good I want to have a place to sit down. I don't think any coffee shop has ever gone out of business because they had too many seats. For example I rarely go to Starbucks because you can never get a seat since they are always occupied by people spending HOURS on their laptop computers. I think a winning business venture would be a Bakery Cafe (with the emphasis on Bakery since this is what we are missing in this part of town) that would offer superior quality coffee with ample places to sit and enjoy baked goods including homemade sandwiches.

 

[cdr108]

I agree. When I buy a coffee and baked good I want to have a place to sit down. I don't think any coffee shop has ever gone out of business because they had too many seats. For example I rarely go to Starbucks because you can never get a seat since they are always occupied by people spending HOURS on their laptop computers. I think a winning business venture would be a Bakery Cafe (with the emphasis on Bakery since this is what we are missing in this part of town) that would offer superior quality coffee with ample places to sit and enjoy baked goods including homemade sandwiches.

would you travel across the bloor viaduct to the danforth for it?

going out of business b/c of too many seats may have more to do with economics ... it's always nice as a customer to have seating available when you want it in a 1500 sf space, but does the shop do enough business to justify the high rents and operating expenses vs. 750 sf space?

 

[UserNameToronto]

Can you recall approx. how many seats they had in both Javaville + Lettieri?

One thing I personally find hugely frustrating in this city are great cafes with zero seating. I avoid them when I can find somewhere with fairly good coffee, and someone to sit and relax.
When I go out for coffee, I pay more not only for the product, but for the atmosphere and environment. I like to be able to get my money's worth, personally.

Anyone else feel this way, or is it a to-go strictly area?

While zero seating is bad, too much seating can be worse--it can create a "dead" atmosphere if the place is only ever 20% utilized, and it's expensive for the shop owner. If anyone's been to the Richmond Rogue at Sherbourne & Richmond, you can see this in action.

Dark Horse Espresso Bar at Queen & Broadview has been doing it right - their Queen East location has some seating (20 max?) and always feels cosy. Always bustling in a good way. Very successful. 600-800sqft I'd say.

 

[Admiral Beez]

For example I rarely go to Starbucks because you can never get a seat since they are always occupied by people spending HOURS on their laptop computers.

I always think this laptop crowd are such posers. I wish Starbucks would stop installing power outlets, and a 15-20 min seating rule.