Buenos Aires - Cliché Bitching About Toronto Thread

[Ervin]

Here's what I think the problem is: The complete lack of balls of every decision maker in the city. It seems like every time somebody proposes a project to improve things, the rest of the city starts screaming at them because the project is either expensive or "unnecessary", or both.

I've been seeing this for years and it's painful. The news is just filled with political yelling about how every person who ever tries to build something in this city is an idiot who is throwing precious taxpayer money away on nothing. Every person who ever shows a sign of initiative is just yelled at until they retreat and hide, never to try anything again. It's so depressing.

If you want anything done you need to be able to part with your money.

 

[Bogtrotter]

Regarding the initial post, I have certainly felt the same way when visiting other large cities, even American ones which many Canadians self-righteously scoff at. At one time I thought that it's because we more socially conscientious Canadians better spread the wealth, but that's not it since plenty of European cities seem to be able to manage a high level of aesthetic appeal. Perhaps it's part of our national character, at least in Anglo Canada, there is this indignant reaction to anything above and beyond the bottom line when it comes to aesthetics.

 

[Lansdown]

Buenos Aires was at one point - very roughly around the turn of the 19th century - a cosmopolitan hub for recent European emigres. It got its attention to detail from them and within a generation it became one of the world's most beautiful cities. What you're discovering was put in place when Argentina was not so categorically "2nd world" as you've characterized it. It is much easier to continue an ideology frozen in the form of concrete than it is to conjure it up from nowhere -- especially in the era of postmodernity we live in.

 

[Roy G Biv]

So you would agree that Canada is a culture-less back-water because it was "created" by the First Nations and the rejects of Europe?

 

[Lansdude]

So you would agree that Canada is a culture-less back-water because it was "created" by the First Nations and the rejects of Europe?

Depends what kind of culture you're talking about. But at the crucial point in history when we could have had the political will to lay the groundwork for a Buenos Aires type public realm, the answer is (was) yes by comparison. And it's not possible to relive that point in western history.

 

[pman]

Depends what kind of culture you're talking about. But at the crucial point in history when we could have had the political will to lay the groundwork for a Buenos Aires type public realm, the answer is (was) yes by comparison. And it's not possible to relive that point in western history.

I agree that Toronto's public realm is horrible, and we'll never approach great world cities in that area. But it's not all hopeless. For example, Caen (France) was basically destroyed by allied bombing in 1944. While a lot of Caen was rebuilt in the 1950's on the cheap (like Toronto), its public realm is good, if not great. They manage to get sidewalks, roads and landscaping more or less right, and they bury the electrical wires. If Toronto fired all City staff responsible for the public realm, and completely reorganized how we plan, construct and maintain our public space, we might approach the level of a third-tier French provincial city in a couple of generations.

 

[Tewder]

Yes, but those are the standards in France in general. Even driving on their highways is a visual joy.

I don't buy this notion that Toronto is naturally bereft of beauty and style in its public realm because we missed the boat in terms of our history. There are many cities in North America that share the same basic historic context that manage to achieve far more than what we achieve here, and there are many younger cities west of Toronto that do too. Toronto shoots low because it aims low. Period. Given our relative constant level of prosperity relative to other cities the sorry and uninspiring state of our public realm is merely a reflexion of how unimportant we view it to be.

 

[Lansdown]

Yes, but those are the standards in France in general. Even driving on their highways is a visual joy.

I don't buy this notion that Toronto is naturally bereft of beauty and style in its public realm because we missed the boat in terms of our history. There are many cities in North America that share the same basic historic context that manage to achieve far more than what we achieve here, and there are many younger cities west of Toronto that do too. Toronto shoots low because it aims low. Period. Given our relative constant level of prosperity relative to other cities the sorry and uninspiring state of our public realm is merely a reflexion of how unimportant we view it to be.

Link to younger prettier cities please within the same cultural context please.

 

[mariam604]

It sometimes feels as if this city were hopeless

 

[Register123]

Link : Vancouver, BC for one. LOL

 

[Register123]

Would also say Montreal, but you might say it has a different cultural context.

 

[pman]

Link to younger prettier cities please within the same cultural context please.

Melbourne and Sydney (Australia, not Nova Scotia) come to mind as cities with much more successful public realms than Toronto, and more or less the same size and cultural context. I know people on this site are going gaga over the Bloor Street reconstruction, and by Toronto standards it is truly amazing. But I'd take the Paris end of Collins Street in Melbourne over that stretch of Bloor any day of the week. Especially if that week were in February.

 

[Thanos]

The issue i have is Toronto of old (pre-1960s) was a beautiful city with some issues that over time could have been improved. Toronto of 1960-90 is where it all went downhill. Although this happened to several NA cities. The cities that haven't been able to recover is due to poor economic performances of the last decade or two. Toronto is the only city in NA that has seen a strong economy but has not been able to improve on it's streetscape. Although it sort of started improving in the last decade, I strongly believe that if it weren't for the amalgamation it would have improved much much more.

 

[mrgrieves]

I don't think its necessary to look at Europe as a leading example, but right in our backyard in Montreal (my hometown). No streetcar wires, no power lines everywhere, nice street furniture and many large trees. Ask any Montrealer and he will tell you Montreal is the greatest city in the world. Of course its not for many reasons, but the mentality of the city is very different. I've also worked in Vancouver and Ottawa, and they also take great pride in the city. Toronto has a cheap attitude where they do not want to make the city great and everyone talks about how the city is in a financial crisis. Its sad that Toronto is content to be mediocre - no Torontonian I speak with complains about the city's ugliness, they're just apathetic.

And I don't think the blame goes to Rob Ford - he's been in power a year (a long year), the city is much older than that.

Toronto is an amazing place and in my mind has some great assets which need to be showcased - the waterfront, the ravines and the abundance of vibrant neighbourhoods.

Hopefully this Bloor Street rejuvenation will serve as a model and inspiration for the rest of the city.

 

[pman]

I don't think its necessary to look at Europe as a leading example, but right in our backyard in Montreal (my hometown). No streetcar wires, no power lines everywhere, nice street furniture and many large trees. Ask any Montrealer and he will tell you Montreal is the greatest city in the world. Of course its not for many reasons, but the mentality of the city is very different. I've also worked in Vancouver and Ottawa, and they also take great pride in the city. Toronto has a cheap attitude where they do not want to make the city great and everyone talks about how the city is in a financial crisis. Its sad that Toronto is content to be mediocre - no Torontonian I speak with complains about the city's ugliness, they're just apathetic.

And I don't think the blame goes to Rob Ford - he's been in power a year (a long year), the city is much older than that.

Toronto is an amazing place and in my mind has some great assets which need to be showcased - the waterfront, the ravines and the abundance of vibrant neighbourhoods.

Hopefully this Bloor Street rejuvenation will serve as a model and inspiration for the rest of the city.

I agree completely. I spent 2009 and 2010 living in Montreal on a contract and I was blown away at the superiority of its public realm to Toronto's. In fact I had one of my former Montreal colleagues visiting last week and he was mildly shocked at our fondness for stringing overhead wires from wooden poles on main streets (yes, I know Montreal does this in back alleys too, but that's different).