Toronto Billy Bishop Toronto City Airport | ?m | ?s | Ports Toronto | Arup

[kEiThZ]

There's a really simple reason for this, which is that there are no fare classes in long haul, so everybody gets the Latitude Plus miles at Tango Plus prices. On the other hand, if you fly Tango on short haul (even Tango Plus), you get no miles.

None of the above is true. AC's lowest fare class on international flights is Tango Plus. And there's no distinction between Latitude Plus miles and Tango Plus miles (there's actually no such thing as Latitude Plus...it's just Latitude). They are just status miles (points that count towards your aeroplan status tier) . What matter is what percentage of the miles you get from what you are entitled to and what percentage of those are status miles. And Tango does give you aeroplan miles. They just don't give you status miles on Tango.

Tango = 25% Non-status miles
Tango Plus = 100% Status miles
Latitude = 100% Status miles
Executive First Lowest = 125% Status miles
Executive First Flexible = 150% Status miles

By far though, as I've said, the best deal is the Aeroplan VISA card. My family goes on vacation once or twice a year, and my dad never pays. We also used a bunch of his miles to supplement my existing miles and my sister's existing miles from a couple of other long haul trips.

And I've gone first class return to Germany on Lufthansa with my collection of most aeroplan points on VISA in just 3 years, so yeah I agree it's a great deal. However, again, what matters to frequent fliers is status segments and staus miles, not necessarily straight accumulation of miles, which frequently fliers would get anyway. It's not just the free flights that matter to them. When you start flying a lot, particularly on the same routes regularly, things like lounges, on-board service, wifi access, etc. start to matter. All this gets even more accentuated on short-haul flights where your work and travel schedules are usually tighter. For such travelers points on a visa aren't really a deciding factor.

Another good deal is just getting an Aeroplan membership. You get some savings by waiving the miles if you have a membership, regardless of whether or not you ever use it.

You can get that anyway. Just waive the miles when you book. You don't need to have a membership to waive the miles.

 

[dsantesteban]

AC's lowest fare class on international flights is Tango Plus. And there's no distinction between Latitude Plus miles and Tango Plus miles

I haven't flown with Air Canada in a few years, only Star Alliance, so things might have changed.

You can get that anyway. Just waive the miles when you book. You don't need to have a membership to waive the miles.

Again, last time I checked, which was looking at prices for a flight to Washington DC a year ago, they said you needed to enter your Aeroplan number to waive the miles.

However, again, what matters to frequent fliers is status segments and staus miles, not necessarily straight accumulation of miles, which frequently fliers would get anyway.

I thought the Visa card did give you status miles. Regardless, I think that's more related to personal preference. Personally, airport food is fairly cheap and I, nor anybody I know, will ever need wifi at an airport, so that's not a big problem. Preferential treatment is a good thing, but it's still pretty crappy with Air Canada. Also, some lounges' wifi signals go beyond the lounge.

 

[dsantesteban]

I miss the $100 (taxes, airport fees, etc included in this) Toronto <-> Ottawa round trips when Porter first launched; accomplished by skipping points, baggage, etc.

I totally agree. If I'm going to Ottawa and don't want to drive, I don't even give my Aeroplan points a thought. It's Porter all the way.

It takes a lot of Toronto-Ottawa trips to get any significant number of points.

I just wanna point out without going too far off-track, I don't really understand why somebody would go by plane anywhere in the corridor. For the same price as a plane ticket, you can go first class by train to Ottawa. You get free wi-fi on the train, an amazing meal, but the real payoff is that you can just show up 15 minutes before departure and get on your train. Plus you can take practically anything that you want on the train with you. Even liquids and gels in more than 100 ml.

 

[PinkLucy]

I can walk to Union to get the train, I can walk to Porter to catch a flight. You don't have to show up hours ahead of time for Porter. If I'm coming and going the same day, flying is much faster. Same-day return flight doesn't involve liquids and gels

 

[dsantesteban]

Honestly, the thing I really love about the train, more than the savings and the not-having-to-worry-about-stuff-in-your-carry-on-being-banned, is just the comfort level. You can't sit in groups of four on a plane facing each other. You can't get up and walk around on a plane. And most of all, on-board meals are crafted and perfected by god and his/her/its forces.

 

[PinkLucy]

I love the train when I have time.

 

[jn_12]

Long range flights (such as yyz-yhz) with the current Q400 are a nightmare to operate. People and bags are regularly bumped on the direct flights to Halifax at Christmas time. The cost to send these bags either on their own flight without passengers (which has happened) or with a cargo company is quite sizable and negates a lot of (almost all?) the profit made by a full flight. Particularly in the winter when weather causes further havoc it has been a disaster in the past. So Toronto to Winnipeg might be in range but i wouldn't want to do it. It's easy to say "cap the flight at X passengers", but try telling that to a board that only cares about revenue. Everything is short term, and they'll let the operations people take the brunt of it and sort it out. It would only tarnish the Porter brand, which already takes a huge hit at Christmas time with these direct flights.

re hubs: YOW and YHZ are slowly becoming hubs in their own right, but my understanding is that the cost to turn an airport into a hub can be a deterrent. Before last summer, Halifax's staff wasn't even on Porter's payroll. It was contracted out. I think the current set up works since 20 planes gives them the flexibility to ensure that certain planes are in YTZ for regular maintenance, while if a plane goes out of service somewhere, a maintenance guy in YTZ is only an hour away no matter where the plane goes out of service. The other consideration is that half of the Q400s have to service the USA for a certain percentage of its flights. It's in their contract with Bombardier, so as to showcase the Q400 in the US. So this means they either have to start doing flights to the US from YOW (making it more of a hub) or find new markets to get into from YTZ (washington/philly).

 

[sjc]

I just wanna point out without going too far off-track, I don't really understand why somebody would go by plane anywhere in the corridor.

If I have to get to a meeting at 8:30am in Ottawa, I can't get there by train without going the day before. In fact, the first train to Ottawa doesn't get there until 11:44am, which makes it tight to get there for lunch.

Similarly, at the end of the at the end of the day, the 5pm train won't get you to Union until 9:20pm. With Porter, I can be home in time for a late supper.

The train almost always will require an overnight stay. When you start to add in meals and hotels, the train starts to get more expensive.

 

[kEiThZ]

Long range flights (such as yyz-yhz) with the current Q400 are a nightmare to operate. People and bags are regularly bumped on the direct flights to Halifax at Christmas time. The cost to send these bags either on their own flight without passengers (which has happened) or with a cargo company is quite sizable and negates a lot of (almost all?) the profit made by a full flight. Particularly in the winter when weather causes further havoc it has been a disaster in the past. So Toronto to Winnipeg might be in range but i wouldn't want to do it. It's easy to say "cap the flight at X passengers", but try telling that to a board that only cares about revenue. Everything is short term, and they'll let the operations people take the brunt of it and sort it out. It would only tarnish the Porter brand, which already takes a huge hit at Christmas time with these direct flights.

One would think that execs in the airline business would understand the impact of luggage capacity or payload on ops and the need for a pax restriction on some routes. The flights to Halifax can be run better if they simply impose a pax restriction. Longer term, I think it makes more sense for them to bite the bullet and impose a quick transfer in Ottawa or Montreal...a strategy that makes more sense if they do decide to use a bigger aircraft type between hubs like I've proposed before.

Anyway, while the Q400 has the range to reach Winnipeg, nobody has to worry about that scenario because the YTZ does not have the runway length the Q400 needs to reach its max payload which allows for a full plane with enough gas to get to Winnipeg. And generally speaking most airlines in the world try and keep Q400 type ops to within 1-1.5 hrs of flight time. So even if they had the runway to let them make it to Winnipeg, they'd be quite leary of taking up the option anyway.

re hubs: YOW and YHZ are slowly becoming hubs in their own right, but my understanding is that the cost to turn an airport into a hub can be a deterrent. Before last summer, Halifax's staff wasn't even on Porter's payroll. It was contracted out. I think the current set up works since 20 planes gives them the flexibility to ensure that certain planes are in YTZ for regular maintenance, while if a plane goes out of service somewhere, a maintenance guy in YTZ is only an hour away no matter where the plane goes out of service. The other consideration is that half of the Q400s have to service the USA for a certain percentage of its flights. It's in their contract with Bombardier, so as to showcase the Q400 in the US. So this means they either have to start doing flights to the US from YOW (making it more of a hub) or find new markets to get into from YTZ (washington/philly).

I'd envision that over time Ottawa and Halifax will have transborder ops. YOW-DCA, YHZ-BOS, YHZ-EWR would all make a lot of sense. And like I've said earlier it makes a lot of sense for Porter to focus on turning Ottawa and Halifax, both Jazz focus cities into Porter secondary hubs. Even the maintenance staging isn't really an issue. They are a regional airline. A tech is never more than 2 hrs away. And in most cases, a tech is never more than an hour away. Indeed, if they do expand in the east, it'll make sense to have a snags desk at Ottawa and/or Halifax.

As for the hubs being expensive. That's an easy fix. Invest in making them proper hubs. No contracted out staff. Setup a Porter base in Ottawa and Halifax.

 

[jn_12]

One would think that execs in the airline business would understand the impact of luggage capacity or payload on ops and the need for a pax restriction on some routes. The flights to Halifax can be run better if they simply impose a pax restriction. Longer term, I think it makes more sense for them to bite the bullet and impose a quick transfer in Ottawa or Montreal...a strategy that makes more sense if they do decide to use a bigger aircraft type between hubs like I've proposed before.

You would think so wouldn't you? I don't doubt they understand it, they just see dollar signs and the opportunity to have a full plane, which for a company whose planes are 95% of the time only half full is fairly significant. The suggestion was made to limit the direct flights to 55 people and allow for a standby list if room was available, but this was turned down. They'd rather have the money in their coffers and deal with any of the repercussions later. It baffles me as well, but I'm not an airline exec, so I don't know how they think.

I'd envision that over time Ottawa and Halifax will have transborder ops. YOW-DCA, YHZ-BOS, YHZ-EWR would all make a lot of sense. And like I've said earlier it makes a lot of sense for Porter to focus on turning Ottawa and Halifax, both Jazz focus cities into Porter secondary hubs. Even the maintenance staging isn't really an issue. They are a regional airline. A tech is never more than 2 hrs away. And in most cases, a tech is never more than an hour away. Indeed, if they do expand in the east, it'll make sense to have a snags desk at Ottawa and/or Halifax.

As for the hubs being expensive. That's an easy fix. Invest in making them proper hubs. No contracted out staff. Setup a Porter base in Ottawa and Halifax.

The staff in YOW has always been Porter staff. The staff in YHZ was contracted out until last year. With the lounge in YOW up and running it certainly gives it more of a hub feel, and they have the ability to service more destinations from there. I don't know the cost of hangar space and whatnot, but I'd imagine that's fairly significant (which is what I was getting at). I don't foresee any further growth from YHZ beyond what they're doing now (Moncton, St Johns, YOW). It sounds like they're going to try and get as much service out of YTZ as possible to try and take up as many slots as possible. Obviously, some of these flight slots to YOW and YUL are simply placeholders so that way AC and whoever else gets in doesn't get them, but they'll want to eventually fill those with actual flights to new destinations. I think there's a bit of a fear that if they don't find some new markets from YTZ, they could end up getting screwed when new airlines move in. If I'm Porter, I want to be the first airline into any destination that has potential. So they need to jump on that quickly. So to me, I think YTZ will be the focus once the new terminal is fully ready and then they'll look to see what they can do from YOW.

 

[sjc]

Porter has submitted a preliminary prospectus for an IPO.

Globe: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/porter-airlines-poised-for-ipo/article1537141/
Yahoo: http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/100416/business/porter_aviation
Gazette: http://www.montrealgazette.com/business/Porter+Airlines+cleared/2916471/story.html#ixzz0lIeVejK8

This is to get new cash, likely to get new aircraft -- one article speculated it could raise $80 million -- and the existing owners will not be selling their shares.

 

[kEiThZ]

^ Makes sense to do the IPO now. Porter needs new aircraft to max out at YTZ while not losing momentum elsewhere. As jn_12 pointed out, they have to move on new destinations from YTZ before the new guys come in. But I think we might see another hub in Halifax soon. Atlantic Canada has lots of room for growth where AC and Jazz rule the roost.

 

[TOareaFan]

^ Makes sense to do the IPO now. Porter needs new aircraft to max out at YTZ while not losing momentum elsewhere. As jn_12 pointed out, they have to move on new destinations from YTZ before the new guys come in. But I think we might see another hub in Halifax soon. Atlantic Canada has lots of room for growth where AC and Jazz rule the roost.

Not sure how much sense this IPO makes (sure they have a use for the money but airline stocks are hardly the flavour of the day and the cost of this capital may exceed the value....time and the markets will tell, I guess) but what I am confident of is this will confirm their statements about their profitibility to date. I know there has been some doubt about their statements that they are profitable....but if they aren't it would be revealed via the offering.......and if turns out they were not being truthful/accurate about this in recent media articles, then it will hurt the success of the IPO.

 

[jn_12]

re: profitability. For the longest time Deluce wouldn't use the word "profitable" when discussing the company's financial situation. It was always something along the lines of "revenue positive". You could say there's not a big difference, but he seemed to go out of his way to avoid saying "profitable" in favour of this other term. Maybe there was nothing to it, but I guess we'll see soon enough.

 

[ganjavih]

I've had nothing but good things to say about Porter from the beginning, but I'm starting to get fed up with flight delays and cancellations. Anyone else share this opinion?