Toronto Billy Bishop Toronto City Airport | ?m | ?s | Ports Toronto | Arup

[Northern Light]

I mean if that's the price for not having to deal with NIMBY's across the board, I think that's probably a good trade off. Far to much time is spent trying to appease the loudest voices.

The issue is not one of actually accommodating every objector to every thing...........

Nor is it even pretending to try.

Rather, its actually listening to complaints/critiques of whatever (transit service, government inefficiency, litter, homelessness, the state of parks/public realm or healthcare wait times etc.) and doing so with empathy, and giving serious consideration
to whether 'x' needs to be addressed and if so, how.

When one suggests 'appeasing' (obviously used as pejorative) one is saying essentially 'The World is flawlessly perfect, as is every idea, and there is no room for improvement). Now I know you didn't mean that; but when you broad brush every 'complaint' into one morass of unjustified self-pity, that's exactly what you're doing; dismissing every criticism of every thing.

The world is far too flawed for that.

 

[Carpe Diem]

I can't speak intelligently about the data and nuance of the conversation from locals, but as a Toronto resident, I have used Billy Bishop a lot over the years and love the airport. It is highly convenient and accessible for someone living in the city, and a much better user experience than Pearson. I am speaking specifically about flying Porter. Most recently leaving my house and being on the ground in Quebec City door to door in about 3.5 hours.

I also can't speak intelligently to the whole Toronto Island conversation. I have used it infrequently in my life, but enough that I have feelings about it. It is mostly hard to access with the ferry terminal in the core, which is a shame because it is such an amazing outdoor space in the city. That said, I was there recently (a weekday in late September) and did a run that took me the full length of the Billy Bishop fence line to the south. While the airport has what appears to be a lot of excess land, the islands were so empty it didn't feel like a place screaming for extra parkland, especially if it could only be accessed by ferries. I know it's an extreme drop-off in users in the fall and on a weekday. I would love to see the Island Airport around long term with better access to the Toronto Islands.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

I think its important to stop getting caught up in the subjective. The objective or factual is what matters.

That said, the subdivisions near Pearson that do experience real issues w/noise, ought not to have been built at all, they weren't supposed to be originally, the area was zoned agriculture, then industrial for a reason. But lets not get too sidetracked.

I'd love to put the Pearson Noise Complainers, Billy Bishop Complainers, and Pickering Airport Complainers all in one room and have them duke it out to decide where additional air capacity is going to be built.

And the Pearson noise complaints extend far beyond the areas in Mississauga that are signed for airport noise. Many of the complainants come from areas 10+ Km away from the airport.

 

[leftfieldto]

The statement above reflects your preferences and biases, but fails to offer a shred of evidence, to objectively support the originally asserted conclusion.

You're right. However, he is also right that the airport was there long before the condos. People bought next to a pre-existing airport.

 

[rbt]

You're right. However, he is also right that the airport was there long before the condos. People bought next to a pre-existing airport.

While true, when I bought in Fort York BB traffic was mostly a mid-day flight-school with small aircraft flying around from about 10am through 3pm with very little outside those times. When Porter began operations I suddenly couldn't sleep with my window open before 11pm or after 6am, even on weekends. I didn't complain despite the airport operations being a primary driver in my sleep schedule, but I did move within a couple years; been at the new place for 15 years (similar size/amenities). I got surprised by just how much louder the Q400's were, especially during landing, and by the significantly extended hours of operation.

I'll also mention that for I flew Porter a couple times a month and walked to the airport from home, which was nice.

 

[afransen]

What Pearson noise complainers? I've never heard this.

 

[Amare]

What Pearson noise complainers? I've never heard this.

There have been many stories I can remember of people in Toronto complaining about noisy jets from Pearson. Off the top of my head residents of Markland Woods and around Downsview have complained, and there are various people who have complained about the noise from Air Canada's Airbus jets (A319, 320, 321).

 

[picard102]

Yes, lots of complaints around downsview about the downsview airport and pearson. Not it's just pearson, and concerts.

 

[smably]

While the airport has what appears to be a lot of excess land, the islands were so empty it didn't feel like a place screaming for extra parkland, especially if it could only be accessed by ferries.

A couple of thoughts on this. One, location is important. Even with a hypothetical Eastern Gap bridge, existing island parkland wouldn't be within practical walking distance of the core. The airport lands, on the other hand, are in a prime location close to the foot of Bathurst. Two, why assume that a new park would only be accessible by ferry? There's already a pedestrian tunnel to the island, it just isn't usable for access to parkland right now. I can't imagine any serious plan for converting the airport to a park that wouldn't involve tunnel access.

 

[Northern Light]

Excellent Column out this morning from Matt Elliott in The Star:

Matt Elliott: Billy Bishop airport’s 40-year lease needs a much closer look before we clear it for takeoff

If there’s a vision for changed operations at the island airport, the public deserves to know about what changes may be coming.

www.thestar.com

I'll extract a couple of key bits from the above:

and

I'll leave it at that and suggest people follow the link for the rest of Matt's excellent work.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

What Pearson noise complainers? I've never heard this.

I suggest you sit in, or listen to one of GTAA's Noise Management meetings. There are many residents from Burlington, Oakville, Milton, Vaughan, etc there to complain about noise at Pearson. Many suggest moving flights from Pearson to other airports, including building Pickering Airport. GTAA actually had to slightly adjust some of it's approach flight paths to accommodate the towers built at VMC, and even raised concerns about the building heights there when it was proposed.

I've provided a few links below. While some are dated, they still give an idea of the attitude residents have toward Pearson.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1722683328510239139

https://x.com/FairFlightPath

https://x.com/JieYin49621979

 

[lenaitch]

I suggest you sit in, or listen to one of GTAA's Noise Management meetings. There are many residents from Burlington, Oakville, Milton, Vaughan, etc there to complain about noise at Pearson. Many suggest moving flights from Pearson to other airports, including building Pickering Airport. GTAA actually had to slightly adjust some of it's approach flight paths to accommodate the towers built at VMC, and even raised concerns about the building heights there when it was proposed.

I've provided a few links below. While some are dated, they still give an idea of the attitude residents have toward Pearson.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1722683328510239139

https://x.com/FairFlightPath

https://x.com/JieYin49621979

Setting aside that I think they were being sarcastic, I'm often curious about people who live in an urban area then complain about noise (planes, trains and automobiles), power lines. Similar to people who move to the country then complain about smells and slow moving machinery on the road.

Many suggest moving flights from Pearson to other airports,

Making it somebody else's problem is always a popular suggestion. No doubt many of the same people would complain that getting to a distant airport is soooo inconvenient.

 

[Northern Light]

On the heels of Matt's Column in the The Star, is a column by @AlexBozikovic which is a wonderful exploration of what could be done with BBTCA if it were transformed into a Park. The Globe hired Public Work to reimagine the space.

Airport to park: a bold vision for the Toronto Island

The Globe and Mail offers the most authoritative news in Canada, featuring national and international news

www.theglobeandmail.com

From the above and courtesy Public Work

 

[PL1]

Making it somebody else's problem is always a popular suggestion. No doubt many of the same people would complain that getting to a distant airport is soooo inconvenient.

100% this. Well, there may be a few that don't fly, but most do and want the convenience of a flight from their local major airport

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Setting aside that I think they were being sarcastic, I'm often curious about people who live in an urban area then complain about noise (planes, trains and automobiles), power lines. Similar to people who move to the country then complain about smells and slow moving machinery on the road.


Making it somebody else's problem is always a popular suggestion. No doubt many of the same people would complain that getting to a distant airport is soooo inconvenient.

I find it quite hilarious actually. People think that being 10+ Km away from the airport excludes them from dealing with aircraft flying overhead but fail to realize that they live right in the approach area for a runway and final approach to landing often begins 5 miles away from the runway. Meaning that if you live within 5 miles (approx 10Km) from a runway threshold you, unfortunately are going to deal with aircraft, and there's really no where else for those aircraft to go. Then you add movements to line the aircraft up to the runway... Honestly anyone within a 15 Km radius from the airport should expect planes, regardless of what NEF contours say.

Then the suggestions they make are absurd. Rotate runway usage (can't do that bc runways a primarily decided by wind direction). Don't fly over my house, fly another x mins and fly over there (nevermind additional emissions). And of course build Pickering airport (how about you go over and tell the land over landings people that it's time to build Pickering). It's textbook NIMBY'ism IMHO