Toronto Billy Bishop Toronto City Airport | ?m | ?s | Ports Toronto | Arup

[Woodbridge_Heights]

TOareafan:

The interesting thing in your observation is that it is probably fair to argue that you probably have a mix of planes that are in general more technologically advanced and quieter than before. The point being - it's important to test how the plane will actually perform in the TIA setting.

AoD

Actually I would estimate that Pearson sees a majority of 'old' technology aircraft as opposed to new. There are far more A319/320/340's, and 747/757/767/777's all of which were introduced prior to 2000 (and most prior to the 1990's) than there are next generation 737's, 380's, 787's, and 320Neo's. In fact I believe the A320 family (which Air Canada has a bunch of) is the noisiest commercial airliner now that the old MD-11's and 80's have begun to phase out.

 

[Cinnamon]

Would you consider 727 as whisper jet? What about DC-9 or DC-10?

They were also marketed as whisper jets. There is no doubt that the aviation technology has changed dramatically in last 20 years, what didn't changed is human perception of noise and false advertising.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Marketing like this always has to be taken while remembering the environment in which it occurred. At the time I'm sure they were quieter than other planes that were in the air. Much the same way that a car from the 70's or 80's that was the most fuel efficient at the time would today be a gas guzzler. You can't call that false advertising.

You're being a bit alarmist.

 

[Cinnamon]

Marketing like this always has to be taken while remembering the environment in which it occurred. At the time I'm sure they were quieter than other planes that were in the air. Much the same way that a car from the 70's or 80's that was the most fuel efficient at the time would today be a gas guzzler. You can't call that false advertising.

You're being a bit alarmist.

What about those:

 

[nfitz]

This morning (December 05, 2013) 4 planes started their engines at 06:30am, and took off between 06:45 - 07:00am. I measured noise level in my apartment during that duration, and it was between 40-50 dBA.

Is that all? I'd have thought at that time in the morning, the ambient noise from the Gardiner, and all the traffic on Queens Quay, would be over 50 dBA.

Isn't that then the proof that levels are low? I've been indoor in Streetsville with planes landing at Pearson, miles away, and had to stop conversations because of the noise.

Still, I can see why so many people are looking forward to the quieter jets. You should write to your councillor to push for the jets, which make less noise than a turboprop.

Still, if such low noise levels bother you ... why did you move in next to an airport?

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

What about those:

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Now your just trolling. Also you forgot the photo of Hitler.

 

[rbt]

Still, if such low noise levels bother you ... why did you move in next to an airport?

When I moved to that area, the airport had a flight school which was fairly infrequent and kinda fun to watch. The flightschool trained during good weather only (almost nothing over winter) and very rarely before 10am or after 6pm. There were no frequent commercial flights; Air Canada had something like 4 flights per day. The bridge had been cancelled and traffic was low.


When I moved away Porter had flights landing every 10 minutes starting; landing seemed to be far louder than takeoff. They woke me up reliably enough I was no longer setting an alarm clock. Traffic was becoming a problem as taxies run the light out of the airport frequently.

It was a significantly different airport than when I moved in.

That said, it didn't seem to impact resale value very much.

Also, I really enjoyed Porter at the beginning. Those first couple of years I took ~30 flights with them, mostly to Ottawa. The charm quickly wore off; don't think I've flown with them in a 2 or 3 years now.

 

[kEiThZ]

On the other hand, I don't agree with you for the financial benefits part. Nobody flies in and out Toronto just to fly with Porter and eat free nuts. Any financial benefit Porter claims, is actually stolen business from Pearson. As Mr.Deluce said once, flying from Island Airport is cannibalization of Pearson

The represents a fundamental misunderstanding of the economics of competition. Statscan disagrees with you. Competition in the Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal triangle is one of the few markets which has seen notable declines in air fares in the last few years. Take a guess why.

Consolidating air traffic at Pearson might please downtown yuppies (and I actually live at a condo at Fort York in view of the airport...before you bash away...) but it will do nothing to economically benefit the region. High landing fees at YYZ, strongly favour airlines with larger aircraft. So AC and WS will kill off Porter (just like the yuppies want), air fares will climb and our business and tourism sectors will be disadvantaged.

Sometimes, I find myself cheering on the coming condo crash just so some people will learn that you can't pay for a city and a country by trading condos to each other, at the expense of every other sector of the economy.

As someone who lives within a view of the airport, I have never once been disturbed by noise from the airport. Not once. So, yes, I find the complaints overdone. I would have an issue if Porter was proposing to land an Airbus A319 or even an Embraer E190. But if the CSeries is certified by Transport Canada as having noise levels on par with the Q400, I think the objections are absolutely ridiculous. It's like rejecting a modern laser printer as too noisy for your office because you thought the dot matrix printer preceeding it was way too noisy, and then concluded all printers are noisy. Utter and wilful ignorance.

 

[picard102]

"To fly you to our new destinations, we’re planning to add the brand new, Canadian-made Bombardier CS100 to our fleet."

Another misleading PR crap from Porter. This is why now people are discussing "Canadian Innovation" in aviation history.

Engines on CS100 are produced in USA - developed by an American company - with help of Germans of course

Engines on Q400 are produced in Canada - developed by same American company, not sure about German involvement.

Most products have components from other sources then their own. But we still refer to them as being from their final manufactures location.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

"To fly you to our new destinations, we’re planning to add the brand new, Canadian-made Bombardier CS100 to our fleet."

Another misleading PR crap from Porter. This is why now people are discussing "Canadian Innovation" in aviation history.

Engines on CS100 are produced in USA - developed by an American company - with help of Germans of course

Engines on Q400 are produced in Canada - developed by same American company, not sure about German involvement.

THE GERMANS!!! OH NO NOT THE GERMANS!!! WHO WILL THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!

FYI to my knowledge the Toronto Rocket subway trains are only 'assembled' in Thunder Bay ONT. Most of the components come from other countries, including (gasp) Germany. So much for the 'buy local' motive right?

 

[junctionist]

THE GERMANS!!! OH NO NOT THE GERMANS!!! WHO WILL THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!

FYI to my knowledge the Toronto Rocket subway trains are only 'assembled' in Thunder Bay ONT. Most of the components come from other countries, including (gasp) Germany. So much for the 'buy local' motive right?

The streetcar contract required minimum 25 percent Canadian content, so the winner couldn't just put together a bunch of foreign parts in a Canadian assembly plant.

 

[TOareaFan]

The streetcar contract required minimum 25 percent Canadian content, so the winner couldn't just put together a bunch of foreign parts in a Canadian assembly plant.

I think the point was that picking on the fact that the engines of the C Series are not a Canadian product to say that it is "misleading PR crap" is a bit over the top. As you point out, up to 75% of the streetcars could be made elsewhere.

 

[TOareaFan]

When I moved to that area, the airport had a flight school which was fairly infrequent and kinda fun to watch. The flightschool trained during good weather only (almost nothing over winter) and very rarely before 10am or after 6pm. There were no frequent commercial flights; Air Canada had something like 4 flights per day. The bridge had been cancelled and traffic was low.


When I moved away Porter had flights landing every 10 minutes starting; landing seemed to be far louder than takeoff. They woke me up reliably enough I was no longer setting an alarm clock. Traffic was becoming a problem as taxies run the light out of the airport frequently.

You must have moved in after the first wave of expanded use ended and before the Porter thing started. Has the airport yet to reach its old record of 240k (i recall seeing that number) movements in a single year?

It was a significantly different airport than when I moved in.

That said, it didn't seem to impact resale value very much.

Those are the points I was kinda making in describing my personal experience living near (well 14km as the crow flies from T1) Pearson. The number and direction of flights has changed....have I lost money?...of course not....because there is a lot more to real estate values than noise.....but there may come a day when we say "that's enough lets move on".

But you can't control or stop or over regulate the growth in the region and increased numbers of flights are bound to happen (at both airports) and there is no way to guarantee that each and every neighbourhood is as equally quiet as the others.....or that one that was previously quiet is no longer so.

Also, I really enjoyed Porter at the beginning. Those first couple of years I took ~30 flights with them, mostly to Ottawa. The charm quickly wore off; don't think I've flown with them in a 2 or 3 years now.

Frankly there really is not much difference between Porter and other airlines.....I think the convenience of the airport they fly from has a lot to do with their success. (in other words, the niceties they offer would not, in and of themselves, be much of a factor in me picking them to fly with).

 

[Peepers]

Originally Posted by Cinnamon View Post
"To fly you to our new destinations, we’re planning to add the brand new, Canadian-made Bombardier CS100 to our fleet."

Another misleading PR crap from Porter. This is why now people are discussing "Canadian Innovation" in aviation history.

Engines on CS100 are produced in USA - developed by an American company - with help of Germans of course

Engines on Q400 are produced in Canada - developed by same American company, not sure about German involvement.

Actually you do not have your facts right.

The PW1500 "Pure Power" engine on the CSeries is being final assembled in Mirabel by Pratt & Whitney Canada which is completely autonomous from Pratt & Whitney in the U.S. . Testing and certification of the PW1500 was performed at Mirabel using Pratt & Whitney Canada's Boeing 747SP flying test-bed so there is significant Canadian content - enough to call these engines Canadian made even though major components and engineering is derived from P&W USA and MTU Germany.

http://www.canadianmanufacturing.co...s/pwc-pw1500g-engine-takes-first-flight-35976

As for the engines that power the Q400 that is a different story. They are 100% Canadian having been designed and manufactured in Longueuil Quebec. They were not developed by an American (or German) company. Pratt & Whitney Canada has the world mandate for small turbine engines within P&W i.e. it is not a "branch plant" like GM Canada. It is a Canadian company respected worldwide that we should all be proud of.

If you know anything about Canadian aviation history and Canadian aviation companies you would understand it is with good reason that people talk about "Canadian innovation" in aerospace. No other country the size of Canada can count the number of aviation accomplishments that we can count. It is the one industry where Canada is still a leader, thankfully.

 

[ShonTron]

The streetcar contract required minimum 25 percent Canadian content, so the winner couldn't just put together a bunch of foreign parts in a Canadian assembly plant.

Buy America, which covers most infrastructure/transportation projects with federal funding, requires 50.1% American content.

As there's a new Canada-Europe free trade agreement, it might become harder to demand even 25% local content.