Toronto Billy Bishop Toronto City Airport | ?m | ?s | Ports Toronto | Arup

[kEiThZ]

3) One of the biggest noise complaints were during engine run ups in the mornings. It is my understanding that engine run ups are required for prop engines but not jet engines? That removes a significant amount of noise creation

The run-ups are required if maintenance is performed. I'm guessing Porter does their maintenance at night when the airport isn't operating and usually likes to run them up in the morning to return them to maintenance if the run-up fails.

Run-ups will probably be required on the CSeries. The frequency of them though, I can't say. Would have to see the manuals.

4) With Porter using almost all available slots at YTZ the only way to grow is to increase the capacity of the aircraft leaving YTZ per slot. Q400's seat about 80 (around 70 in Porter's configuration), the C-Series seats about 110 in it's roomiest configuration. Therefore Porter can get passenger growth of somewhere between 37-57% per slot just by moving to the C-Series.

At the moment with a load factor around 61%, Porter isn't actually all that concerned about growth. This will be an eventual concern to be sure. Just not right now.

Porter is, however, flying a lot more than they need to. They are doing this to keep the slots out of Air Canada's hands. If they get the CSeries, they will reduce service to Ottawa and Montreal and use those slots to service higher-yielding longer haul destinations.

So at least initially, this actually means that you wont see that many jets taking off from YTZ. With the time difference, for example, a CSeries aircaft would only be able to fit in one return run to LA or Vancouver or may be two return runs to Miami. Of course, as Porter's flights to Ottawa and Montreal then start filling up, they'll replace the Q400 with the CS100. That's why they are only buying 12 now, but taking up 18 options. Those options would be to replace their Q400 fleet down the road.

 

[TOareaFan]

Q: How big and loud are these planes compared to the standard planes which fly out of Pearson? If they aren't much worse than what is already coming in and out of Billy Bishop, then I guess it could work. If these are essentially Bombardier's standard jets that you see out of major airports... well, are they freaking insane?!?

On the plus side, if Ford supports this, then you can bet your ass he is toast come the next election.

1. These are not the Bombarier jets you see at Pearson (those are CRJs)....in fact I would guess you have never seen these fly in any airport because, well, they are not scheduled to have their first test flight until June of this year they are brand new planes.

2. The specs they are built to and the engines they are using are reported to be +/- as quiet/noisy as the Q400s

3. They are built to hold 100 - 125 people in a 2 + 3 seat configuration...so they are longer and wider than the Q400s

4. The poll on the Star shows +/- 60% of people in support of the airport expansion and jets...so I am not sure how "Ford is toast" if/because he supports this.

 

[TOareaFan]

So at least initially, this actually means that you wont see that many jets taking off from YTZ. With the time difference, for example, a CSeries aircaft would only be able to fit in one return run to LA or Vancouver or may be two return runs to Miami. Of course, as Porter's flights to Ottawa and Montreal then start filling up, they'll replace the Q400 with the CS100. That's why they are only buying 12 now, but taking up 18 options. Those options would be to replace their Q400 fleet down the road.

Good catch...this was one of the points they made at the press conference. The typical Porter flight now leaves the island and comes back a couple of hours later....so there is a lot of plane movements. The new jets, if allowed, it was pointed out would travel much longer return trips so would be gone longer. So they will have less movements/per day than the Q400s. What was missed, though, in that was that the Q400s do not just magically disappear so any movements by CSs would be additive so the notion they seemed to be trying to sell there (ie. that these will lead to less aircraft movements) didn't quite sit right with me.

 

[kEiThZ]

Q: How big and loud are these planes compared to the standard planes which fly out of Pearson? If they aren't much worse than what is already coming in and out of Billy Bishop, then I guess it could work. If these are essentially Bombardier's standard jets that you see out of major airports... well, are they freaking insane?!?

The CS100 actually has 1/4 the noise footprint of a comparable sized aircraft. In absolute terms, the aircraft is as noisy as the Q400s being flown from Billy Bishop today. Technically speaking the CS100 is actually 5.1 dB quieter than the Q400 (though that's not noticeable by any human).

Q400 has a cumulative noise level of 255.1 EPNdB. The CS400 is supposed to be below 250 EPNdB. Just google Pratt and Whitney PW1000G.

That's why I ask. Is this about noise or is this about opposition to the airport itself. If it's about noise, it's a no-brainer.

On the plus side, if Ford supports this, then you can bet your ass he is toast come the next election.

Ford is toast regardless of what happens on this issue. But I wouldn't bet that the majority of 416 residents are opposed to the expansion of Billy Bishop. There is polling that says otherwise.

 

[interchange42]

Meanwhile…

You'll see at the top of the thread that we now have a dataBase page for the pedestrian tunnel, and in fact there's a construction update story on the front page! It's a Porter/BBTCA feast today!

42

 

[kEiThZ]

Good catch...this was one of the points they made at the press conference. The typical Porter flight now leaves the island and comes back a couple of hours later....so there is a lot of plane movements. The new jets, if allowed, it was pointed out would travel much longer return trips so would be gone longer. So they will have less movements/per day than the Q400s. What was missed, though, in that was that the Q400s do not just magically disappear so any movements by CSs would be additive so the notion they seemed to be trying to sell there (ie. that these will lead to less aircraft movements) didn't quite sit right with me.

They are slot limited though. So there will be no change in the number of aircraft movements.

What you will see is fewer Q400 flights. And more CS100 flights. And a gradual transition over time (something like a decade or more) to an all CS100 fleet.

 

[PinkLucy]

The run-ups are required if maintenance is performed. I'm guessing Porter does their maintenance at night when the airport isn't operating and usually likes to run them up in the morning to return them to maintenance if the run-up fails.

Runs ups happen all the time; there's one right now as I'm typing. They don't do them late at night because that is against the rules, but they do do them often early in the morning. (Saves me needing to set an alarm most days) They also seem to like doing them on Sundays. Extended run ups can be extremely annoying, far more so than take-offs and landings, and are a definite bone of contention at any airport/community meetings.

 

[kEiThZ]

Runs ups happen all the time; there's one right now as I'm typing. They don't do them late at night because that is against the rules, but they do do them often early in the morning. (Saves me needing to set an alarm most days) They also seem to like doing them on Sundays. Extended run ups can be extremely annoying, far more so than take-offs and landings, and are a definite bone of contention at any airport/community meetings.

One point I will add is that run-ups of something like the CSeries will sound different than the Q400 run-ups. They might be a tad quieter too. It might actually be more tolerable. Hard to tell until you see the manual though. There's a lot of new technology in this engine. So nobody will know what the run-up requirements are at the moment.

 

[kEiThZ]

On the noise front also. Porter is not asking for any change at all to the current Noise Exposure Forecast (NEF25) rules or the flight paths currently mandated by the airport's noise abatement procedure.

As far as noise is concerned, this is essentially a 1-for-1 swap with a Q400.

 

[Peepers]

From Adam Vaughan's Facebook page

Allowing jets at the island airport means paving the lake. This will have a huge impact on everything from the quality of our drinking water, to the enjoyment of the waterfront that we’re currently rebuilding. This will affect anyone who lives anywhere near the water, from Scarborough to Etobicoke. This is our lake, and if you industrialize it and fill it in for an airport it ceases to be our lake; it becomes Porter’s lake.

Extending the runway will effect the quality of our drinking water? What is Vaughan talking about? Rob Ford is lampooned all the time for the inane things that he says but could we have a bigger moron on city council than Adam Vaughan?

 

[Peepers]

I can't believe that there are middle of the road councillors opposed to a thousand more jobs in this city. I can expect opposition from Vaughan or Chow or other downtown councillors. But Stintz dismissing this off-hand? Disappointed.

I agree. I expect idiocy from politicians like Vaughan and Chow but I don't know how other politician's can ignore the importance of this airport to the city of Toronto. A study last year revealed that Island Airport pumps $2 Billion into the Toronto economy each year (compare that to the expect $900 Million increase in GDP that a Casino is expected to bring in). It is a huge source of jobs both direct and indirect at Bombardier Downsview which is the largest manufacturing employer inside Toronto. Harder to measure but just as important is the value of an Island Airport to attracting jobs downtown. Easy access to airports is vital for many big businesses. We have seen a huge increase in the number of Office towers under construction or planned in the downtown. I am sure that the Island Airport has played some part in this success. And then of course there is the environmental impact. For every passenger who flies out of the Island it means one less trip to Pearson on our clogged highways.

Unfortunately when it comes to municipal politics Councillors are usually terrified of the power that very small but well organized groups can have. If you look at the election vote tallies the number of ballots cast for a Councillor is usually very small and often victory is measured by just a few hundreds votes (as in the case of Wong-Tam).

For those of us who support expanding the airport and allowing in the CSeries it is really important that we make our voices heard. Make sure you email the Mayor and Council with your concerns!

 

[kEiThZ]

Extending the runway will effect the quality of our drinking water? What is Vaughan talking about? Rob Ford is lampooned all the time for the inane things that he says but could we have a bigger moron on city council than Adam Vaughan?

I don't know if Vaughan is a bigger moron. But certainly the hysterics don't help. We're talking about a 1100ft runway extension entirely inside the boundaries of the existing airport, to operate an aircraft that is as quiet as the ones that are operating there today with no increase in traffic. To suggest that 550 feet on each side is "paving the lake" is utterly ridiculous.

For those of us who support expanding the airport and allowing in the CSeries it is really important that we make our voices heard. Make sure you email the Mayor and Council with your concerns!

I've emailed my support to my MP, MPP and City councillor. I'll be emailing my opposition to Stintz's comments to her tonight.

 

[mettle]

They are slot limited though. So there will be no change in the number of aircraft movements.

how do you know porter won't try to amend the tripartite agreement for this as well?

the same arguments could be made... nimby's are whiners, increased convenience, it's good for the economy, etc.

 

[mettle]

They are slot limited though. So there will be no change in the number of aircraft movements.

afaik, porter isn't filling their planes these days. if they take delivery of the cs100's, what are they going to do with that excess capacity? i don't want to jump to conclusions, but it's a bit curious.

 

[Dan416]

Stintz has disappointed yet again with her position on this issue. I used to think she was pretty smart. Starting to think maybe not so much. Vaughan's position is laughable/ludicrous, but expected.

I'm glad to see the polling is in favour of the expansion, even on TheStar's site.