S
SD2
Guest
Is it? The city has changed quite a bit in a relatively short period of time...
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Is it? The city has changed quite a bit in a relatively short period of time...
S
SD2
Guest
I dont know if I would agree with that. There has been change, some areas such as by the Skydome and waterfront have certainly changed, and still are, and there are some spot changes around the city.
But overall, a walk down Yonge or Bloor or Queen West still largely feels the same as it did 20 years ago just with the usual changes that take place over a generation in any city. Other than new towers going up, Toronto today still feels like the Toronto I remember when I would visit in the early 80's.
I disagree. Maybe aesthetically there is some catching up to do, but the city has certainly changed quiet a bit in the past 20-30 years.
M
maxy505
Guest
I don't feel that the essence, character, or experience of the city has changed much in the past decade. I see incremental improvements.
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TdotTrickyRicky
Guest
The city has changed an enormous amount in the last few decades but the overall feel has not progressed very rapidly towards a mature aesthetically pleasing environment. Much of the building stock, the houses and storefront that make up the city is substandard contruction by international standards. Even our new constructions can be described as perhaps standard. If you go to significant public spaces and parks, they are generally generic patches of grass to walk the dog or play with the kids. There is very little sense of permanence in the urban character, that screams "this place", the kind of vibe that tourists enjoy. I sometimes think of Toronto as one of the worlds largest first-world shanty-towns. Even our new constructions like condo towers have a kind of middle-class shanty town vibe. Little permanence but lots of flexibility.
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Darkstar416
Guest
True, or they tend to scream that there best days were clearly behind them. Yorkville Park and the Toronto Music Garden notwithstanding.If you go to significant public spaces and parks, they are generally generic patches of grass to walk the dog or play with the kids.
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ganjavih
Guest
I agree with your post Tdot. I think we have most of the basic ingredients of a great city but it's just not being put together properly.
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BrianHawkins1
Guest
"I sometimes think of Toronto as one of the worlds largest first-world shanty-towns."
Bull's-eye.
Bull's-eye.
D
DarnDirtyApe
Guest
What have we had?
Big one-time events aren't nearly as useful as continuous reasons to visit a city. Sure, the Olympics can provide a boost, but that glitter fades quickly leaving a legacy of unused sports facilities and cost overruns. How is tourism these days in Atlanta, Salt Lake City, or Calgary?
We still have a whole bunch of events that attract both tourists and locals, including Toronto International Film Festival, Caribana, Molson Indy, CNE, Street Festivals, Pride Parade, etc.
We just need to get the word out that Toronto is a fun place to visit, since too many Americans think it is boring up here. I'd also like to see promotions for more than the usual suspects for tourism - there's more to Toronto than the CN Tower, Mamma Mia and the old Spaghetti Factory!
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tudararms
Guest
TdotTrickyRicky: Agree with your post. As a city we've only ever demanded mediocrity here and that's all we've ever been given, aside from a few noticable exceptions such as the CN Tower. I do find it hard at times to believe that the city as I know it built the world's tallest tower! Hyperbole aside, the past 5 or so years have seen some great things (cultural renaissance, film festival, hip neighbourhoods and infill everywhere), but we are still a pretty ugly, provincial looking place, at least on the surface. Miller talked a big deal about beautifying but apparantly that was just lipservice. To play in the bigleagues you've got to be beautiful and functional. We could be there, we are poised on the brink.
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tudararms
Guest
Forgot to add, I think a major international event in this city would help. There's been a lot of talk about the Olympics, we'll get it one day. Maybe a world expo would be good but that does seem somewhat second tier to me. Most people identify with, recognize and are curious about the Olympic cities. It definately adds cache and pedigree. Don't forget, Montreal is an Olympic City and held the world's attention back in '76 as well as a world expo in 67. What have we had?
S
SD2
Guest
TdotTrickyRicky: Agree with your post. As a city we've only ever demanded mediocrity here and that's all we've ever been given, aside from a few noticable exceptions such as the CN Tower. I do find it hard at times to believe that the city as I know it built the world's tallest tower! Hyperbole aside, the past 5 or so years have seen some great things (cultural renaissance, film festival, hip neighbourhoods and infill everywhere), but we are still a pretty ugly, provincial looking place, at least on the surface. Miller talked a big deal about beautifying but apparantly that was just lipservice. To play in the bigleagues you've got to be beautiful and functional. We could be there, we are poised on the brink.
Well, I don't know about only demanding mediocrity. And I think Miller has made good progress with beautification. It hasn't been the dramatic citywide makeover he (and we for that matter) would like, but there is only so much you can do on a limited budget with a 3 year term. He's off to a good start.
There are a lot of nice parks...they just aren't patched together well. Little things like nicer streetscapes, lighting, etc. would help dramatically.
S
SD2
Guest
Big one-time events aren't nearly as useful as continuous reasons to visit a city. Sure, the Olympics can provide a boost, but that glitter fades quickly leaving a legacy of unused sports facilities and cost overruns. How is tourism these days in Atlanta, Salt Lake City, or Calgary?
We still have a whole bunch of events that attract both tourists and locals, including Toronto International Film Festival, Caribana, Molson Indy, CNE, Street Festivals, Pride Parade, etc.
We just need to get the word out that Toronto is a fun place to visit, since too many Americans think it is boring up here. I'd also like to see promotions for more than the usual suspects for tourism - there's more to Toronto than the CN Tower, Mamma Mia and the old Spaghetti Factory!
I totally agree.
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TdotTrickyRicky
Guest
While much of the built form can certainly be described as medicocre, I was commenting more on the feeling of permanence. Places that have strong character are often those where you can walk down some side-street staircase or past some house or store that was crafted with care and intention. It could have been there for a thousand years or only one, and feels like it will be there for a thousand more. You get this feeling in some Toronto neighbourhoods particularly on residential streets, but not so often where tourists venture.
Living in the west end I often think of two of the major parks,
Christie Pits and Trinity-Bellwoods. These are great urban spaces with a variety of topography. In most other major cities they would be crafted into great, perhaps internationally recognizable urban spaces programed with art, monuments, stairs, fountains whatever. In Toronto they are kind of like parks built in suburban subdivisions, but aged and poorly maintained, surrounded by aging and poorly maintained buildings that often turn their backs on the space.
We all know that Toronto has an enormous amount of content and a huge amount of potential, but we are literally generations from a point where great spaces like Christie Pits or Trinity-Bellwoods can hold there own on the international stage.
Living in the west end I often think of two of the major parks,
Christie Pits and Trinity-Bellwoods. These are great urban spaces with a variety of topography. In most other major cities they would be crafted into great, perhaps internationally recognizable urban spaces programed with art, monuments, stairs, fountains whatever. In Toronto they are kind of like parks built in suburban subdivisions, but aged and poorly maintained, surrounded by aging and poorly maintained buildings that often turn their backs on the space.
We all know that Toronto has an enormous amount of content and a huge amount of potential, but we are literally generations from a point where great spaces like Christie Pits or Trinity-Bellwoods can hold there own on the international stage.
C
cacruden
Guest
Olympics will have a one time affect -- not really worth the bidding on it.
Summer festivals are good. The government can figure out how much tax income is derived from increasing tourism (Canadian goverment -- tax on non-Canadians; Ontario -- tax on non-Ontario residents; Toronto -- revenue from those outside the city).... This estimated additional revenue can then provide an upper boundary on "subsidies" that could be provided for enhancing; and marketting Toronto festivals etc.
Add a congestion tax to reduce traffic flow into the downtown core; Invest in progressive subway improvements; Invest in the ability to route traffic around streets that can then be closed down during times when festivals are going on (preferably around Eatons -- Dundas Square etc.) . Take a page from the Montreal Jazz Festival and close off some streets, put up some temporary major stages for these "big events" -- have some festivals go a week or so.
Market -- Market -- Market Toronto.
Invite major news media (especially CNN/Fox News in the US) -- treat them like Royalty -- and provide them free accomodation etc. so there is no reason for them not to attend.
Summer festivals are good. The government can figure out how much tax income is derived from increasing tourism (Canadian goverment -- tax on non-Canadians; Ontario -- tax on non-Ontario residents; Toronto -- revenue from those outside the city).... This estimated additional revenue can then provide an upper boundary on "subsidies" that could be provided for enhancing; and marketting Toronto festivals etc.
Add a congestion tax to reduce traffic flow into the downtown core; Invest in progressive subway improvements; Invest in the ability to route traffic around streets that can then be closed down during times when festivals are going on (preferably around Eatons -- Dundas Square etc.) . Take a page from the Montreal Jazz Festival and close off some streets, put up some temporary major stages for these "big events" -- have some festivals go a week or so.
Market -- Market -- Market Toronto.
Invite major news media (especially CNN/Fox News in the US) -- treat them like Royalty -- and provide them free accomodation etc. so there is no reason for them not to attend.
S
SD2
Guest
While much of the built form can certainly be described as medicocre, I was commenting more on the feeling of permanence. Places that have strong character are often those where you can walk down some side-street staircase or past some house or store that was crafted with care and intention. It could have been there for a thousand years or only one, and feels like it will be there for a thousand more. You get this feeling in some Toronto neighbourhoods particularly on residential streets, but not so often where tourists venture.
There are areas in Toronto like this...but then it's a relatively young city.
Living in the west end I often think of two of the major parks,
Christie Pits and Trinity-Bellwoods. These are great urban spaces with a variety of topography. In most other major cities they would be crafted into great, perhaps internationally recognizable urban spaces programed with art, monuments, stairs, fountains whatever. In Toronto they are kind of like parks built in suburban subdivisions, but aged and poorly maintained, surrounded by aging and poorly maintained buildings that often turn their backs on the space.
We all know that Toronto has an enormous amount of content and a huge amount of potential, but we are literally generations from a point where great spaces like Christie Pits or Trinity-Bellwoods can hold there own on the international stage.
I remember being in a few parks in London that were like Trinity-Bellwoods and the Christie Pits (if I could only remember their names). All cities have some less than stellar parks.
In any case, I think a bit of care with landscaping and streetscaping can change things dramatically.
Kind of like how ganjavih was mentioning Vancouver seems so different than the last time he visited, and like a very mature city, if only because of the care they take with the streetscaping, etc.