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Baby, we got a bubble!?

I'm curious why people think the damage will be restricted only to condos.

Sure, there is going to be some slight delay till all those 120 day rate holds and pre-approvals pass. But after that....And it's only going to propagate up the property ladder.

On the upper end, removing supports for those million dollar homes (not an uncommon sight in Toronto these days) is sure to reduce the pool for those buyers at those prices. A lot of what were million dollar homes will suddenly be within the price range of new buyers. And as they upgrade, sellers who were expecting to unload on them will have to downgrade.

Squeeze from the top and bottom. Who knows how bad it's going to be. Could be a blip. Could be a speed bump on the road to higher prices. Or could the pin that pops the balloon. Time will tell. After all, with housing being as illiquid as it is, it's hard to tell if a bubble's popped until it has. This time next year, we'll have some inkling.

And just remember, asset pricing is always determined at the margins. It's those 5% of buyers who are impacted that determine the prices for the rest of us. If the new rules price them out, well, prices will have to come down till they can get back in.
 
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h

i heard somewhere that they also changed the TDS / GDS ratios but haven't read it.
it was said they increased the ratios such that the lowering of the amortization was offset by the increase in TDS / GDS.

anyone have info on that ???

Max of 39%. I don't know what it was prior.
 
^^^
Not sure but I seem to recall 32% and 40% for TDS and GDSas the old numbers.

The other thing to remember is my understanding (though I may be wrong) is that those who had a 30/35/40 year mortgage before will be allowed to renew it when it comes due at 30/35/40 years. This affects new and not "renewal" mortgages. If that is the case then much less people will be affected since those who qualified before should be able to qualify again (barring a large increase in mortgage rate) while still keeping the new buyers at the margin who would qualify at 25 years but not 30 years from purchasing.

I have to believe if the above is correct that this would be a very small number and would not result in a massive demand decline. Perhaps that is why BJL was saying "not much effect" as well as not wanting to spook the market.
 
The KingEast, you are correct that removing foreign investment will affect prices but the question is how much?

No one knows and until they don't get the data, the government can't make decisions based on a "hunch". That said, I hope that some of our brain trust in Ottawa is collecting this data and if there is a large foreign speculative content, will act to curtail it.

I think Eug is probably correct and that the foreign component is not as large as people think. It sounds good to "hype" Toronto as a no fail investment to say "everyone is buying here so you smart locals should do the same".

I think if the government doesn't have the data on this then they are doing a very poor job.
 
I wonder if the new mortgage rules will cause condo developers to redesign their units even smaller to make them more affordable for first time buyers.
 
I wonder if the new mortgage rules will cause condo developers to redesign their units even smaller to make them more affordable for first time buyers.

Marsh, there is only so small that they can go. If they do this, I would not touch these under 300 sq.ft. condos because if there is at any time an excess of product available who will rent them or buy them?
I would hope perhaps rather they would build more footage and forgo the bells and whistles such as granite/marble/SS appliances etc. I also think it is wonderful that condos have a lot of amenities but they are expensive to build and run.
Just my thoughts.
 
I wonder if the new mortgage rules will cause condo developers to redesign their units even smaller to make them more affordable for first time buyers.


if they're greedy, sure.
i read somewhere from an industry insider report that it costs under $325 psf to construct a condo. (all in - land, materials, marketing, etc)
 
. It's those 5% of buyers who are impacted that determine the prices for the rest of us. If the new rules price them out, well, prices will have to come down till they can get back in.

Couldn't have said it better myself.
 
I think it will be interesting to see how the rental market performs. Rental rates will increase because of this. Great for investors!
 
I think it will be interesting to see how the rental market performs. Rental rates will increase because of this. Great for investors!


doubt it ... rents have barely budged in a decade.
supply has exceeded demand, PLUS several developers and REITS are/in process of building rentals throughout GTA
(ie. concert, minto, greenwin)
 
if they're greedy, sure.
i read somewhere from an industry insider report that it costs under $325 psf to construct a condo. (all in - land, materials, marketing, etc)

That might depend on location. Land is more expensive along Yonge and downtown areas than suburban areas. I think interested estimated them over $400 psf and that was years ago, so it might be up more now.
 
That might depend on location. Land is more expensive along Yonge and downtown areas than suburban areas. I think interested estimated them over $400 psf and that was years ago, so it might be up more now.


sure land is more expensive along Yonge and dt toronto; however, they build at greater densities here than suburban areas so that explanation doesn't hold
 
I think it will be interesting to see how the rental market performs. Rental rates will increase because of this. Great for investors!

I am not so sure of this. Remember that if people can't afford to buy and that stopped tomorrow there is a lag for all the units under construction to finish. More product will hit the market and hence there should be no tightening of the rental market at least for 2-3 years. Also, if the economy not doing so well, it is hard for rents to increase much (if people are not getting pay increases).

In 2-3 years if a lot of buildings from last year sales get shelved and similarly this year fail to launch, perhaps then there will be some increase if the market tightens more.

To cdr's comment:
There are some rentals being built but I don't think it represents a large portion of the rental market. I don't have figures and am guessing but I doubt it is more than 2-3000 units compared to 18000/year condos of which about 1/2 or 9000 go to the rental pool. My understanding is that TO has about a 2-3% vacancy of apartments/condos but when divided between older apartments vs. condos, it approaches 4-5% for apartments and 1% or less for condos which is actually quite a tight market as long as everyone wants to live in the newest condos with the most modern amenities.
 
From the New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/23/b...-slowdown.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&ref=business

hinese Data Said to Mask Slowed Economy
Gilles Sabrie for The New York Times

Coal stockpiled at Qinhuangdao port, one of the largest coal storage areas in China, reached 9.5 million tons this month.
By KEITH BRADSHER
Published: June 22, 2012

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HONG KONG — As the Chinese economy continues to sputter, prominent corporate executives in China and Western economists say there is evidence that local and provincial officials are falsifying economic statistics to disguise the true depth of the troubles.
Related

China Data Show Drops in Exports and Prices (June 22, 2012)

Record-setting mountains of excess coal have accumulated at the country’s biggest storage areas because power plants are burning less coal in the face of tumbling electricity demand. But local and provincial government officials have forced plant managers not to report to Beijing the full extent of the slowdown, power sector executives said.

Electricity production and consumption have been considered a telltale sign of a wide variety of economic activity. They are widely viewed by foreign investors and even some Chinese officials as the gold standard for measuring what is really happening in the country’s economy, because the gathering and reporting of data in China is not considered as reliable as it is in many countries.

Indeed, officials in some cities and provinces are also overstating economic output, corporate revenue, corporate profits and tax receipts, the corporate executives and economists said. The officials do so by urging businesses to keep separate sets of books, showing improving business results and tax payments that do not exist.

The executives and economists roughly estimated that the effect of the inaccurate statistics was to falsely inflate a variety of economic indicators by 1 or 2 percentage points. That may be enough to make very bad economic news look merely bad. The executives and economists requested anonymity for fear of jeopardizing their relationship with the Chinese authorities, on whom they depend for data and business deals.

The National Bureau of Statistics, the government agency in Beijing that compiles most of the country’s economic statistics, denied that economic data had been overstated.“This is not rooted in evidence,” an agency spokeswoman said.

Some still express confidence in the official statistics. Mark Mobius, the executive chairman of Templeton Emerging Markets Group, cited the reported electricity figures when he expressed skepticism that the Chinese economy had real difficulties. “I don’t think the economic activity is that bad — just look at the electricity production,” he said.

But an economist with ties to the agency said that officials had begun making inquiries after detecting signs that electricity numbers may have been overstated.

Questions about the quality and accuracy of Chinese economic data are longstanding, but the concerns now being raised are unusual. This year is the first time since 1989 that a sharp economic slowdown has coincided with the once-a-decade changeover in the country’s top leadership.

Officials at all levels of government are under pressure to report good economic results to Beijing as they wait for promotions, demotions and transfers to cascade down from Beijing. So narrower and seemingly more obscure measures of economic activity are being falsified, according to the executives and economists.

“The government officials don’t want to see the negative,” so they tell power managers to report usage declines as zero change, said a chief executive in the power sector.

Another top corporate executive in China with access to electricity grid data from two provinces in east-central China that are centers of heavy industry, Shandong and Jiangsu, said that electricity consumption in both provinces had dropped more than 10 percent in May from a year earlier. Electricity consumption has also fallen in parts of western China. Yet, the economist with ties to the statistical agency said that cities and provinces across the country had reported flat or only slightly rising electricity consumption.

Rohan Kendall, senior analyst for Asian coal at Wood Mackenzie, the global energy consulting firm, said coal stockpiled at Qinhuangdao port reached 9.5 million tons this month, as coal arrives on trains faster than needed by power plants in southern China. That surpasses the previous record of 9.3 million tons, set in November 2008, near the bottom of the global financial downturn.

The next three largest coal storage areas in China — in Tianjin, Caofeidian and Lianyungang — are also at record levels, an executive in China said.

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Chinese Data Said to Mask Slowed Economy
Published: June 22, 2012

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(Page 2 of 2)

Many Chinese economic indicators already show a slowdown this spring, with fixed-asset investment growing at its weakest pace in May since 2001. The annual growth rate for industrial production has edged below 10 percent, while electricity generation was up only 3.2 percent in May from a year earlier and up only 1.5 percent in April.
Related

China Data Show Drops in Exports and Prices (June 22, 2012)

The question is whether the actual slowdown is even worse. Skewed government data would help explain why prices for commodities like oil, coal and copper fell heavily this spring even though official Chinese statistics show a more modest deceleration in economic activity.

Manipulation of official statistics would also provide a clue why some wholesalers of consumer goods and construction materials say sales are now as dismal as in early 2009.

Keeping accurate statistics for internal use by policy makers while releasing less grim figures to the public and financial markets may also help explain why China’s central bank suddenly and unexpectedly cut interest rates earlier this month.

Studies by Goldman Sachs and other institutions over the years have strongly suggested that Chinese statisticians smooth out the quarterly growth figures, underreporting growth during boom years and overstating growth during economic downturns.

And Chinese officials have raised questions in the past about the reliability of Chinese economic statistics. An American diplomatic cable released by WikiLeaks shows that Li Keqiang, widely expected to become premier of China this autumn, said in 2007 that he regarded China’s broad measures of economic growth as “ ‘man-made’ and therefore unreliable.”

Mr. Li told an American diplomat that he looked instead to three indicators that he described as less likely to be fudged: electricity consumption, volume of rail cargo and the disbursement of bank loans.

Jonathan Sinton, a China energy specialist at the International Energy Agency, said he had not heard of false data in China’s electricity sector, and he doubted it would be feasible at the five biggest electricity generation companies that together produce half of China’s electricity.

“If there is a problem, it is going to be located in the smaller producers,” he said, cautioning that even these producers would eventually have to submit accurate information to reconcile fuel, electricity and financial accounts.

Stephen Green, a China economist at Standard Chartered Bank, said that the Chinese economy was still likely to recover this autumn as extra bank lending started to stimulate spending.

But a survey of Chinese manufacturing purchasing managers, released on Thursday by HSBC and Markit and conducted independently of the government, gave the second-gloomiest reading for their businesses since March 2009. Only November of last year was worse, when many small and medium-size businesses faced a brief but severe credit squeeze.
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Maybe Mr. Flaherty is right to save people from themselves. If China is slowing more than we think....read hard landing (and a big consumer of resources), Europe is teetering, the US is slowing....we are going to get blind sided. Interest rates may stay low but our house prices need to adjust slowly downward or at the minimum stop rising.
 
doubt it ... rents have barely budged in a decade.
supply has exceeded demand, PLUS several developers and REITS are/in process of building rentals throughout GTA
(ie. concert, minto, greenwin)


Sorry but vacancy condo rate in heart of Toronto is less than %1.2 and falling...by 2013 its going to below %1.0....
 

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