adma
Superstar
Though taking the big-picture look, I can imagine if Cobb's maturing into something Dem-friendly.
As for N Carolina, remember the late great Jesse Helms...
As for N Carolina, remember the late great Jesse Helms...
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Atlanta jaunt (and bonus Toronto-by-air shots)
- Thread starter JasonParis
- Start date
JasonParis
Moderator
Brandon716
Senior Member
In regards to the question about North Carolina, the state probably has more northern transplants than any southern state - South Florida excluded - but its also still very much southern. NASCAR is headquartered in Charlotte for a reason, and so are Billy Graham's ministries.
To the surprise of most people, Charlotte isn't NC's most progressive city even if its the largest, the Raleigh-Durham area is the most leftist part of the state with the most relaxed population. The problem is that its entirely suburban. Its like living in several Markham neighborhoods with less than a quarter of the density.
The rest of the state is quintessentially southern.
Charlotte is surprisingly conservative outside the downtown neighborhoods. There was a huge Bible theme park headquartered just outside the city across the South Carolina border back in the 1980s, the one ran by the Jim Bakker people. The region is filled with lots of old attitude, the only thing new about Charlotte is uptown and a few implants from Buffalo (Charlotte is apparently the #1 relocation center for former Buffalonians according to several articles I've read).
With everything said, NC can be a charm to visit. The mountain communities in and around Asheville have lots of art and hippie styles, the beaches are beautiful, and Raleigh-Durham is a very educated region of the nation even if its in a state that is otherwise pretty southern.
And there is no question, North Carolina has always been defined as a southern state, a very southern state. Virginia is the dividing line, and northern Virginia is where the transition really takes place, the DC suburbs aren't southern in the least, but when you get to Richmond you can tell you've arrived in the south... Albeit not the deep south.
To the surprise of most people, Charlotte isn't NC's most progressive city even if its the largest, the Raleigh-Durham area is the most leftist part of the state with the most relaxed population. The problem is that its entirely suburban. Its like living in several Markham neighborhoods with less than a quarter of the density.
The rest of the state is quintessentially southern.
Charlotte is surprisingly conservative outside the downtown neighborhoods. There was a huge Bible theme park headquartered just outside the city across the South Carolina border back in the 1980s, the one ran by the Jim Bakker people. The region is filled with lots of old attitude, the only thing new about Charlotte is uptown and a few implants from Buffalo (Charlotte is apparently the #1 relocation center for former Buffalonians according to several articles I've read).
With everything said, NC can be a charm to visit. The mountain communities in and around Asheville have lots of art and hippie styles, the beaches are beautiful, and Raleigh-Durham is a very educated region of the nation even if its in a state that is otherwise pretty southern.
And there is no question, North Carolina has always been defined as a southern state, a very southern state. Virginia is the dividing line, and northern Virginia is where the transition really takes place, the DC suburbs aren't southern in the least, but when you get to Richmond you can tell you've arrived in the south... Albeit not the deep south.
Brandon716
Senior Member
LOL, no Cobb County isn't evolving into something more Democrat, its actually becoming more Republican with each passing year.
Its part of the irony of metro Atlanta, its suburbs have increasingly grown more conservative as the metro area grows while the center city has grown into the most progressive part of the old south. You have to remember that a lot of people from the other parts of the US that tend to move to a place like Atlanta are those looking to get away from the liberal Boston or Philly attitude, they move there for a purpose and its not always about jobs. Some of the most conservative people the state of New York will somehow find their way to Houston or Atlanta eventually. In my opinion, Atlanta's job creation engine is truly overrated.
The real reason so many people moved to Atlanta is because housing is the cheapest in the nation for a larger populated region. You can find a 2500 sq ft home for sale probably for $150-200k throughout outer metro Atlanta in places like Gwinnett County or especially places like Cherokee County. Atlanta has a lot of new $10-12/hr jobs and these people move to Atlanta, get a subprime mortgage and are able to own a 2500 sq ft home on $10/hr.
The downside is that Atlanta was pretty hard hit with subprime mortgages, so like suburban San Francisco, even though Georgia is cheap as dirt, they still have tons of neighborhoods with relatively new homes that are abandoned with foreclosure sales signs up... Sad story, so I doubt Atlanta will continue growing as it once did. The metro area really reached a peak in the 1996 Olympics with recognition, today its just an aging city that is increasingly a sign of the unsustainable past.
THAT is why metro Atlanta grows along with the cultural thing.... Atlanta's job engine isn't creating super high paying jobs, its just so damn cheap to live there. Metro Atlanta's average pay is a step below much of the nation, and its even below the booming Texas metros. Dallas is a much wealthier region than Atlanta for example.
And quite honestly that's why I dislike Atlanta so much, its city isn't that impressive, yet its the only place to truly be comfortable if you're not into intense conservative lifestyles. The city isn't too impressive, so that's why I've never been impressed with the place.
Part of the problem with the city also is the intense racial divide. I won't even bother commenting on it, but Jason (Darkstar) mentioned how he didn't see anyone who was white in the city after business hours. Its true in 2008 as clear as it was in the past.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
Ah, metro Atlanta...28 counties and climbing! If we have Torbuffchester, they have Charlantabama.
I've only been through Atlanta once, driving down to Orlando when I was six (I was the navigator, not the driver)...I remember the highways being absurdly congested and I can only imagine how much worse they are now with the population having gone up by more than 50% since then.
The commuter rail map Ronald posted is interesting...if we had lines of those distances, GO would reach Peterborough, Niagara Falls, Waterloo, etc. The Dufferin bus carries more people per day than all 7 of Atlanta's proposed train lines will (though, to be fair, there's far more potential upswing in Atlanta's ridership numbers than in the Dufferin bus...just shows how small some American cities are starting out and makes you wonder what Toronto would do with similarly better funding).
swaugh3: Atlanta is definitely the kind of city where they've consciously made it more difficult to drive to and from certain places.
I've only been through Atlanta once, driving down to Orlando when I was six (I was the navigator, not the driver)...I remember the highways being absurdly congested and I can only imagine how much worse they are now with the population having gone up by more than 50% since then.
The commuter rail map Ronald posted is interesting...if we had lines of those distances, GO would reach Peterborough, Niagara Falls, Waterloo, etc. The Dufferin bus carries more people per day than all 7 of Atlanta's proposed train lines will (though, to be fair, there's far more potential upswing in Atlanta's ridership numbers than in the Dufferin bus...just shows how small some American cities are starting out and makes you wonder what Toronto would do with similarly better funding).
swaugh3: Atlanta is definitely the kind of city where they've consciously made it more difficult to drive to and from certain places.
adma
Superstar
Actually, relative to a lot of the rest of suburban Atlanta and Georgia, I think Cobb's inherent "Republicanness" probably maxed out around the Newt era. And it's because it's around then that its galloping megagrowth maxed out, too. Cobb's still growing; but its older parts are aging, and "diversifying", while counties beyond become a more attractive destination for, er, RepubliKKKan types. Yes, even Cobb, or at least the parts closest within Atlanta orbit, is "innerburbing".
Now, I don't mean the pendulum's swinging *that* boldly; but, with continued changing demographics and the potential of open seats and congressional redistricting, I can see Cobb going Democratic--even if it's more of a "Jim Webb" kind of Democratic...
Hipster Duck
Senior Member
That's a pretty good description and it also applies to the fastest growing cities in the Southwest. It's not like Phoenix or Las Vegas are awash in jobs, either.
I think this characterizes the difference between the hyper-growth of the American sunbelt versus the hyper-growth of, say, Calgary. In the latter case, it's actually based on a growth of real wealth and employment.
Brandon716
Senior Member
If you are right, I'll be happy. But don't hold your breath, because unfortunately I just don't agree. My brother used to live in Kennesaw and we would go down as a family and visit often, did a whole Christmas down there once. Remember, I'm a native born southern American even if my mentality isn't quite the norm for the region... From what I know about the area, I can't believe it'll ever turn into anything more than it already is.
BUT, I guess we'll find out more as time progresses. We should keep this thread active and in 3 1/2 months when the Presidential election is over just link how Cobb County votes and see how much of a majority McCain will garner.
Long Island Mike
Senior Member
Good Atlanta and Toronto (from the air) pics!
DK416: Good recent Atlanta pics! It brings back a memory of visiting Atlanta in June 1985-I was there during a major early season heatwave-the temperature there was in the high 90s F each day and I recall I spent more time exploring on the MARTA rail system then exploring the City as I originally set out to do.
I remember going to the top of the Marriott Hotel then as well as visiting Coca-Cola's offices-back before the World of Coke days. You mentioned Amtrak-serving Atlanta thru Peachtree Station in the N side of the City - this line does not go thru Downtown Atlanta at all-the train serving ATL is the Southern Crescent that runs from NYC and Washington to New Orleans daily.
Atlanta by the way is one of the USA's most sprawling and highest growth Cities since the 1980s. I am surprised you did not post more MARTA rail pics-the rail system I found to be quite interesting and a good alternative to the traffic-prone Atlanta area.
Those Toronto aerial pics look good-that is the reason if and when I fly I ask for that window seat if possible. Good stuff again! LI MIKE
DK416: Good recent Atlanta pics! It brings back a memory of visiting Atlanta in June 1985-I was there during a major early season heatwave-the temperature there was in the high 90s F each day and I recall I spent more time exploring on the MARTA rail system then exploring the City as I originally set out to do.
I remember going to the top of the Marriott Hotel then as well as visiting Coca-Cola's offices-back before the World of Coke days. You mentioned Amtrak-serving Atlanta thru Peachtree Station in the N side of the City - this line does not go thru Downtown Atlanta at all-the train serving ATL is the Southern Crescent that runs from NYC and Washington to New Orleans daily.
Atlanta by the way is one of the USA's most sprawling and highest growth Cities since the 1980s. I am surprised you did not post more MARTA rail pics-the rail system I found to be quite interesting and a good alternative to the traffic-prone Atlanta area.
Those Toronto aerial pics look good-that is the reason if and when I fly I ask for that window seat if possible. Good stuff again! LI MIKE
adma
Superstar
Though Kennesaw is more like "outer Cobb", as opposed to Marietta or Smyrna.
And remember, too, that I emphasized a "Jim Webb" kind of Democratic pull, i.e. the kind of strategy that led the Dems to retake the Senate and Congress in '06. By Canadian standards, these kinds of Democrats might as well be Harper Tories--however, they *are* Democrats.
You're representing Cobb as classic Southern Huckabee country--in fact, in Georgia's Republican primary, Romney won Cobb, and Huckabee was third. Democratically, Obama won overwhelmingly over Clinton. And in the respective primaries, it was an 89000-81000 split among Republican vs Democratic participants--compare the 33000-13000 split in Cherokee, or the 30000-10000 split in Forsyth. (Rule of thumb: it's those "Romney Republicans" that are key to Democratic strategizing.)
Brandon716
Senior Member
Aren't you the guy I met at Pride 2006 with the group?? If so, how are you curious about Atlanta? Aren't you a lifetime Torontoian???
LOL
For the record, I know Cobb County Republicans are different from rural Georgia in many ways, but its still hardcore Republican. Its hard to explain in a nutshell.
Long Island Mike
Senior Member
Cobb County,Georgia observations...
Brandon: I would like to add that when the MARTA rail system was being planned basically in the 70s that Cobb County chose not to take part-with the base being just Fulton and DeKalb Counties. That is a decision they would later regret-with booming areas like Marietta engulfed in traffic.
The Cobb County Republicans are probably typical suburban capitalists and supply siders and not the moralists of the Religious Right-which is an uneasy alliance in today's Republican Party.
Insight from Long Island Mike
Brandon: I would like to add that when the MARTA rail system was being planned basically in the 70s that Cobb County chose not to take part-with the base being just Fulton and DeKalb Counties. That is a decision they would later regret-with booming areas like Marietta engulfed in traffic.
The Cobb County Republicans are probably typical suburban capitalists and supply siders and not the moralists of the Religious Right-which is an uneasy alliance in today's Republican Party.
Insight from Long Island Mike
adma
Superstar
Maybe think of Cobb County a little like Atlanta's latent answer to Orange County relative to LA--a mythically "conservative Republican" place; yet with maturity and diversity perhaps not as monolithically so as it used to be. And Orange is further along that "de-Republicanization" path than Cobb--sure, the Laguna/Newport zones where everybody looks like Heidi & Spencer might still be solidly Republican (and think of those as Orange County's Kennesaw equivalents); but not so much around Santa Ana.
I'm also judging the climate in which Democrats have taken hitherto solid-Republican seats in special congressional elections in Illinois, Louisiana, Mississippi.
As for "why I'm interested"; well, some of us happen to be demographic and psephologic geeks.
I'm also judging the climate in which Democrats have taken hitherto solid-Republican seats in special congressional elections in Illinois, Louisiana, Mississippi.
As for "why I'm interested"; well, some of us happen to be demographic and psephologic geeks.
Brandon716
Senior Member
Cobb County relative to Republican outposts of places like DuPage County, Illinois or Orange County, California is still an intensely religious place.
I don't think people of Marietta care about MARTA or transit in general, still today.
So far as politics, Cobb County is so Republican that I would have expected that seat in rural northern Mississippi just outside of Memphis to have flipped before ever expecting a place like Cobb County, GA to flip.
There's a LOT of factors playing here, the Congressional seat that flipped in Mississippi is radically different from the demographics found in suburban metro Atlanta.
To be honest, you might be surprised how non-religious some of the rural south can be. Although I'm not referring to the district in Mississippi particularly. The suburbs are the places you find megachurches, not the rural south. They just have a million small congregations on every corner.
I don't think people of Marietta care about MARTA or transit in general, still today.
So far as politics, Cobb County is so Republican that I would have expected that seat in rural northern Mississippi just outside of Memphis to have flipped before ever expecting a place like Cobb County, GA to flip.
There's a LOT of factors playing here, the Congressional seat that flipped in Mississippi is radically different from the demographics found in suburban metro Atlanta.
To be honest, you might be surprised how non-religious some of the rural south can be.
Although I'm not referring to the district in Mississippi particularly. The suburbs are the places you find megachurches, not the rural south. They just have a million small congregations on every corner.Observer Walt
Senior Member
Thanks for the pictures. I agree with the "soulless" description. A shame, since it looks like there are many promising signs and some good potential.
I like that "Flatiron" building. I wonder when it was built? I also liked the appearance of the Bank of America building. Too, too bad about Broad Street. What a nice-looking place to be deserted.
I like that "Flatiron" building. I wonder when it was built? I also liked the appearance of the Bank of America building. Too, too bad about Broad Street. What a nice-looking place to be deserted.