Atheists hope (don't pray) to bring ads to Toronto (G&M)

[Hydrogen]

For better or worse, Judeo Christian values are the moral and cultural underpinning of our Western society. You can't simply toss it out like bathwater. Religious groups also were in the practice of spreading charity and compassion long before non-secular groups, and it wasn't necessarily out of self-interest.

It's difficult to find a people or a culture without some form of what can be broadly referred to here as a moral or ethical codification. That would suggest that the Judeo-Christian one is by no means unique. If groups of people get around to codifying actions by way of moral judgments, it suggests something innate to human psychology, and not religious. In other words, religions come after the fact.

 

[discreet]

For better or worse, Judeo Christian values are the moral and cultural underpinning of our Western society.

you might not want to preach that too loudly. Western society isn't exactly the height of civility.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

This is unrelated to the larger argument that Hydrogen and I have been having about divine creation, but I would definitely come on the side of religion on this point.

For better or worse, Judeo Christian values are the moral and cultural underpinning of our Western society. You can't simply toss it out like bathwater. Religious groups also were in the practice of spreading charity and compassion long before non-secular groups, and it wasn't necessarily out of self-interest. If religious iconography tends to pop up in hospitals or youth outreach centres or other places that tend to the sick and the marginalized, it's probably not by accident.

Incidentally, the chapels in hospitals are provided for people of faith to pray before they or their loved ones go through a potential life and death operation. If they wish, atheists can engage in self-contemplation in the hallway or in the Tim Hortons or anywhere else. This is quite a different scenario from not being admitted to a hospital on religious grounds.

i don't think "Judeo Christian values are the moral and cultural underpinning of our Western society." i think morality is built into most people. there is an evolutionary reason for people being good to others. we wouldn't exist as a species if people didn't care about others. when an animal of one species adopts and animal from another species as its own offspring and raises it, where is this morality coming from? judeo christian values?

the good things from the judeo christian values existed long before judeo christian values. there is an evolutionary reason for love thy neighbor. there is a psychological reason for calling to kill someone simply because they picked up sticks on the sabbath.

all the good parts of christianity (the good morals) existed before well before christianity. judeo christian morals are outlined in the bible. i'd be very frightened if we used that book as a moral compass.


if you think society is based on judeo christian morals, when a female cop pulls you over on the road, point to her in the bible were she is not allowed to exercise authority over a man. in fact do this to a female judge. then she can tell you if we are a judeo christian society. maybe we can tell all the menstruating women to wear red hats so we can be in accordance to christian judeo morals, that men shouldn't approach menstruating women.

Incidentally, the chapels in hospitals are provided for people of faith to pray before they or their loved ones go through a potential life and death operation. If they wish, atheists can engage in self-contemplation in the hallway or in the Tim Hortons or anywhere else.

atheists don't have an agreed upon way of how they should spend their end of days. just like how people who don't believe in astrology, etc.

why does this place of reflection have to be a chapel? is a chapel some sort of telephone booth to god? isn't god supposed to be everywhere? and by extension, hear prayers from anywhere? if this room is for meditative purposes, why does it have to be religiously motivated? why not just a chill out room? i don't mind if a muslim is praying on a carpet on the floor and if a christian is reading a bible in the chair next to me or if a scientologist is making a volcano out of baking soda and vinegar, etc.., ok, that last one was just for jokes.

 

[urbanboom]

i don't think "Judeo Christian values are the moral and cultural underpinning of our Western society." i think morality is built into most people. there is an evolutionary reason for people being good to others. we wouldn't exist as a species if people didn't care about others. when an animal of one species adopts and animal from another species as its own offspring and raises it, where is this morality coming from? judeo christian values?

the good things from the judeo christian values existed long before judeo christian values. there is an evolutionary reason for love thy neighbor. there is a psychological reason for calling to kill someone simply because they picked up sticks on the sabbath.

I beg to differ. If you look at different parts of the world such as the Arab World, East Asia, South-East Asia, they have a very different values system than we do. Most of it has to do with their respective religions.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

I beg to differ. If you look at different parts of the world such as the Arab World, East Asia, South-East Asia, they have a very different values system than we do. Most of it has to do with their respective religions.

and our value systems are christian because of this?

let me ask you this, about the golden rule:

"do on to others as you would want them to do on to you"

if a person helps another person because of this, is it a christian value?

if a person rapes another person because they would like to get raped themselves, is it still a christian value?

 

[Hipster Duck]

why does this place of reflection have to be a chapel? is a chapel some sort of telephone booth to god? isn't god supposed to be everywhere? and by extension, hear prayers from anywhere? if this room is for meditative purposes, why does it have to be religiously motivated? why not just a chill out room? i don't mind if a muslim is praying on a carpet on the floor and if a christian is reading a bible in the chair next to me or if a scientologist is making a volcano out of baking soda and vinegar, etc.., ok, that last one was just for jokes.

Dude, you are seriously going down the path of bigotry here.

I would hope that our society is an all-encompassing one; one that accommodates the needs of groups especially in a hospital where they are at an emotional and possibly terminal point in their lives. If even a small portion of hospital patients are Christian or religious, we should be empathetic enough to devote 10 grand (often collected through private donors) to converting a room for them to pray or communicate with God before confronting surgery. Increasingly as Canadian society becomes more pluralistic, our hospital "chapels" are becoming interfaith rooms. Does it really offend you that you have to pass by a chapel on your way through a hospital?

Let me throw it to you in another, deeply personal way. I assume from reading your posts that you are physically disabled. What would you say to a society that denied disabled people of accessibility through wheelchair ramps and elevators? After all, far less people are physically handicapped in Canada than belong to a church. Why should we accommodate them? Yet, this is precisely what you are arguing when you say that people of faith shouldn't have a chapel to pray in at a hospital. Get this out of your mind.

 

[Hydrogen]

I beg to differ. If you look at different parts of the world such as the Arab World, East Asia, South-East Asia, they have a very different values system than we do. Most of it has to do with their respective religions.

Don't you think you are attempting to emphasize differences at the expense of similarities?

 

[urbanboom]

and our value systems are christian because of this?

let me ask you this, about the golden rule:

"do on to others as you would want them to do on to you"

if a person helps another person because of this, is it a christian value?

if a person rapes another person because they would like to get raped themselves, is it still a christian value?

Your response was ridiculous.

You're saying people want to be raped? Your saying that Jesus thought it was okay to rape others as long as you liked it yourself? Or maybe you're going orthodox on me and taking the Bible 100% literally.

We both know what was meant by that quote, and it had nothing to do with rape.

If this was how you saw religion (AKA, Jesus condoning rape), I'd be an Atheist too.

 

[urbanboom]

Don't you think you are attempting to emphasize differences at the expense of similarities?

All I'm saying is that there are many factors as to why different sets of people have different value systems. Much of it the same, but a lot of it is different. I'm not saying that one set of values is better than another; I'm saying that the largest factor in choosing values as a society is religion.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

Dude, you are seriously going down the path of bigotry here.

I would hope that our society is an all-encompassing one; one that accommodates the needs of groups especially in a hospital where they are at an emotional and possibly terminal point in their lives. If even a small portion of hospital patients are Christian or religious, we should be empathetic enough to devote 10 grand (often collected through private donors) to converting a room for them to pray or communicate with God before confronting surgery. Increasingly as Canadian society becomes more pluralistic, our hospital "chapels" are becoming interfaith rooms. Does it really offend you that you have to pass by a chapel on your way through a hospital?

Let me throw it to you in another, deeply personal way. I assume from reading your posts that you are physically disabled. What would you say to a society that denied disabled people of accessibility through wheelchair ramps and elevators? After all, far less people are physically handicapped in Canada than belong to a church. Why should we accommodate them? Yet, this is precisely what you are arguing when you say that people of faith shouldn't have a chapel to pray in at a hospital. Get this out of your mind.

i'm a bigot? you just equated religious/spiritual/personal belief with disability.

p.s, did you notice i said that the volcano thing was a joke?

and i said people of faith or not faith should have a room to share together to relax and reflect. what's wrong with a green room? if you want to tailor to christianity by making it a chapel, you are excluding hundreds of other religions.

p.s, i think there should be porn viewing rooms in hospitals. maybe we can have a statue of larry flynt too. maybe it can also be a room to engage in sexual activity with escorts. tell you what, if we're allowed to have this type of room, knock your socks off and add on a wing to the hospital that has a mosque, church, temple, whatever.

After all, far less people are physically handicapped in Canada than belong to a church. Why should we accommodate them?

i think more people engage in sexual activity/pleasure in canada then belong to a specif faith. by this reasoning, we should have sexually themed rooms in all hospitals. one where you can read pornographic material, watch pornographic videos and get naked.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

Your response was ridiculous.

You're saying people want to be raped? Your saying that Jesus thought it was okay to rape others as long as you liked it yourself? Or maybe you're going orthodox on me and taking the Bible 100% literally.

We both know what was meant by that quote, and it had nothing to do with rape.

If this was how you saw religion (AKA, Jesus condoning rape), I'd be an Atheist too.

some people wish to have harm inflicted upon them. yes. they're called sadists.

if they do on to to others as they want done on to themselves, are they following christian values? this brings up the question, what makes a value christian? is it because how it's worded?

we have just proved that it is not how it's worded because jesus doesn't want people to rape other people. so the morals are not in the words. the morals are built on respect for other people. this has existed well before jesus.

 

[urbanboom]

some people wish to have harm inflicted upon them. yes. they're called sadists.

if they do on to to others as they want done on to themselves, are they following christian rules? this brings up the question, what makes a rule christian? is it because how it's worded?

we have just proved that it is not how it's worded because jesus doesn't want people to rape other people. so the morals are not in the words. the morals are built on respect for other people. this has existed well before jesus.

Yes, but within that lesson Christ told us to love one an other. You wouldn't be showing the other person "love" if you forced that upon them without their consent.

What defines a Christian is the acceptance of Christ's teachings as divine and mostly to follow his final commandment: to love one another. The morals are in the words. "This is my commandment, that you love one another is, that your joy may be full." That is a moral! Heck, Jesus taught using stories simmilar to Aesop's fables that had morals as the end of them.

And you can't claim that they were already there, because they killed him for his beliefs. He was teaching something out of the ordinary that went against all that they knew. And the people, blinded by their confusion and fear of the unknown, condoned his crucifixtion, which Christ accepted because it was the only way that they would know.

 

[discreet]

And you can't claim that they were already there,

Why can't he make extraordinary claims, but you can?

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

Yes, but within that lesson Christ told us to love one an other. You wouldn't be showing the other person "love" if you forced that upon them without their consent.

What defines a Christian is the acceptance of Christ's teachings as divine and mostly to follow his final commandment: to love one another. The morals are in the words. "This is my commandment, that you love one another is, that your joy may be full." That is a moral! Heck, Jesus taught using stories simmilar to Aesop's fables that had morals as the end of them.

And you can't claim that they were already there, because they killed him for his beliefs. He was teaching something out of the ordinary that went against all that they knew. And the people, blinded by their confusion and fear of the unknown, condoned his crucifixtion, which Christ accepted because it was the only way that they would know.

but jesus told us to hate one another as well. do you want me to find bible passages to back this up? at best, you are following alot of the rules of christianity but not all of them. some are very bad.


so the morals "are in the words" like you say?

LUKE 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children,and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

how is this moral? according to the bible, these are jesus' words.

 

[urbanboom]

Why can't he make extraordinary claims, but you can?

Digi... er.... I mean "discreet", following that statement (which you edited out), I explained why he couldn't make that claim. We both have every right to claim what we want and then back it up.