Alto - High Speed Rail (Toronto-Quebec City)

[crs1026]

I really wonder how much real demand there is for they sub. Seems like everything there can be transloaded 40 km south.

It depends on how far that mineral is shipped, and I'm quite unaware of that.

I have to think it goes quite a long distance - meaning while the Havelock Sub portion of the trip may be a moneyloser, CPKC may make a lot of money hauling it the rest of the way to wherever. If this weren't the case, I'm sure CPKC would have shed the business and closed the line a long time ago. Instead, the Havelock Sub has been run as an "internal short line" - ie in costsaving mode with respect to labour and other costs.

So yeah - the transload option and suspension of freight service is likely quite sustainable.

- Paul

 

[rdaner]

Really interesting discussion (speculative fiction?!). My mind keeps going back to what properties Oxford owns. Also, if one includes air rights above the Gardiner as ‘in play,’ the area around Union is quite open to further expansion. For example, The Hub property as has been alluded to makes perfect sense if some design solution can tie it directly to Union just to the north.

 

[Northern Light]

It depends on how far that mineral is shipped, and I'm quite unaware of that.

I have to think it goes quite a long distance - meaning while the Havelock Sub portion of the trip may be a moneyloser, CPKC may make a lot of money hauling it the rest of the way to wherever. If this weren't the case, I'm sure CPKC would have shed the business and closed the line a long time ago. Instead, the Havelock Sub has been run as an "internal short line" - ie in costsaving mode with respect to labour and other costs.

So yeah - the transload option and suspension of freight service is likely quite sustainable.

- Paul

A few quick comments (not pro or anti anything just facts)

CPKC runs 3 trains per week each direction on this sub.

Quaker Oats in Ptbo remains a customer but as was established when they rebuilt their train shed, they don't need rail they just prefer it.

A youtube video from 9 months ago shows a ~43 car consist hauled by 3 locos; seems like a lot of power for that length.....

Distance from the tip of the Nephton sub to Belleville sub is ~17km; if done as new rail, a water crossing would be required.

If transloading by truck from Nephton (the mine) to Belleville sub, The road distance via County Road 6 and # 44 is ~43km (this is not to a point set up for Transload, just the nearest physical point possible.)

If backtracking to Agincourt, its a ~200km run.

***

On the destination of Nephton's product, nepheline syenite; online info suggests it is shipped globally for use in glass making, ceramics, paint, plastics and roofing. The largest volumes go to the U.S. but Spain, Italy, the Netherlands , China and Japan are all listed as customers.

 

[JasonParis]

Pure speculation, but there have been rumours of MTCC moving to East Harbour over the years. Either as a new convention centre or as a satellite. Regardless, Oxford could cash-in here somehow I'm sure.

 

[Urban Sky]

I'm not suggesting it would be a good option, but doesn't SNCF, one of the consortium members, operate double decker trains in France? The Avelia Horizon is only 200 metres long and can carry 740 passengers. Alto could probably even afford to add a second level to platforms, equipped with platform edge doors, so that both levels could have level boarding. I could see benefits from operating fewer cars rather than longer trains.

If people already whine that they can’t bring 32 kg suitcases (if not: multiple of those) on board VIA, I don’t want to hear the shitstorm when people discover how much worse doubledecker trains are for luggage storage. They are also horrible for accessibility, which is why they are a non-starter for high-level platforms of 121 cm as you find at Gare Centrale (as they would only allow entry to the mezzanine level, while they are maybe 70 cm too high to access the lower level and at least a meter too high to reach the upper deck)…

Summerhill station is a 15 min subway ride from Union. And would probably result in a travel time from Montreal of less than 3 hrs. Not the end of the world, if that is swapped for Union.

Not directed at you specifically, but people here really need to understand that it’s not the proximity to downtown which makes Union the by-orders-of-magnitude most suitable location for any intercity rail station, but the fact that it is the *only* point in the entire GTHA which has excellent transport links into the entire region. Any other location might have marginally better transport links into a small proportion of the region, but massively worse transport links to virtually everywhere else.

Once you grasp this, you will refuse even discussing Summerhill, Woodbine or all this crap…

That said, an alternative downtown station might make sense for GO, but only for corridors which already have excellent frequencies to Union. There is value to offer alternative links into the metropolitan core, but only if nobody who wants to get to Union is forced to take a detour compared to the Status Quo…

 

[ShonTron]

Apparently CP built its mainline through midtown Toronto partly because Union Station was taking too long to finish construction. It seems the line has always been an alternative of sorts to Union Station and could be again. But perhaps at Spadina where there is a connection to the subway and space above and around the rail corridor for a new station.

This is not the case. The CPKC mainline – the North Toronto Subdivision – was built as part of the Ontario & Quebec Railway that connected CP’s Western Ontario properties (the former Credit Valley Railway and Toronto Grey, & Bruce) with the transcontinental mainline through the Ottawa Valley and Montreal. This was back in the early 1880s.

At first, passenger trains from Montreal and Ottawa to Toronto went around the long way to the old Union Station via West Toronto Junction before the Don Bridge was constructed in the early 1900s.

The construction of North Toronto Station on that subdivision was built by CP because of the slow speed of construction of Union Station and the new elevated tracks.

 

[ARG1]

If people already whine that they can’t bring 32 kg suitcases (if not: multiple of those) on board VIA, I don’t want to hear the shitstorm when people discover how much worse doubledecker trains are for luggage storage. They are also horrible for accessibility, which is why they are a non-starter for high-level platforms of 121 cm as you will find at Gare Centrale (as they would only allow entry to the mezzanine level, while they are maybe 70 cm too high to access the lower level and at least a meter too high to reach the upper deck)…


Not directed at you specifically, but people here really need to understand that it’s not the proximity to downtown which makes Union the by-orders-of-magnitude most suitable location for any intercity rail station, but the fact that it is the *only* point in the entire GTHA which has excellent transport links into the entire region. Any other location might have marginally better transport links into a small proportion of the region, but massively worse transport links to virtually everywhere else.

Once you grasp this, you will refuse even discussing Summerhill, Woodbine or all this crap…

That said, an alternative downtown station might make sense for GO, but only for corridors which already have excellent frequencies to Union. There is value to offer alternative links into the metropolitan core, but only if nobody who wants to get to Union is forced to take a detour compared to the Status Quo…

The big issue is how much space is there for Alto trains at Union. Even with DB's departure from GO Expansion operations, GO will have give or take 80 trains per hour running through union during rush hours, plus however many VIA/Northlander trains. With only 8 through platforms after reconfiguration (leaving room for the possibility to run the line to Pearson or a Western Extension), we're talking about roughly 8-9tph per platform (accounting for rush hour trains terminating at stub platforms) once everything is said and done. I don't think anyone is claiming that terminating Alto trains at Summerhill is a good idea, but rather that depending on how much money we want to spend on this thing, it might be the only affordable option given Union's capacity constraints - at least in the medium term.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

The big issue is how much space is there for Alto trains at Union. Even with DB's departure from GO Expansion operations, GO will have give or take 80 trains per hour running through union during rush hours, plus however many VIA/Northlander trains. With only 8 through platforms after reconfiguration (leaving room for the possibility to run the line to Pearson or a Western Extension), we're talking about roughly 8-9tph per platform (accounting for rush hour trains terminating at stub platforms) once everything is said and done. I don't think anyone is claiming that terminating Alto trains at Summerhill is a good idea, but rather that depending on how much money we want to spend on this thing, it might be the only affordable option given Union's capacity constraints - at least in the medium term.

Edit:

We are building OL to serve reliever stations for Union for a reason. Boot some GO trains off.

AoD

 

[jmi22]

Once you grasp this, you will refuse even discussing Summerhill, Woodbine or all this crap…

That said, an alternative downtown station might make sense for GO, but only for corridors which already have excellent frequencies to Union. There is value to offer alternative links into the metropolitan core, but only if nobody who wants to get to Union is forced to take a detour compared to the Status Quo…

Yep, the actual discussion of where a station may be exists within an area bound by Front, Jarvis, Spadina and the Gardiner. Anywhere else, and the math simply doesn't work for the hundreds of billions we are about to piss into this thing.

 

[lenaitch]

Distance from the tip of the Nephton sub to Belleville sub is ~17km; if done as new rail, a water crossing would be required.

If transloading by truck from Nephton (the min) to Belleville sub, The road distance via County Road 6 and # 44 is ~43km (this is not to a point set up for Transload, just the nearest physical point possible.

?? Nephton sub is 20 track miles (32km) to Havelock. According to Google, Havelock to Brighton (Belleville sub) is about 45 straight line kilometers, about 75km Blue Mountain to Brighton.

 

[Northern Light]

The big issue is how much space is there for Alto trains at Union. Even with DB's departure from GO Expansion operations, GO will have give or take 80 trains per hour running through union during rush hours, plus however many VIA/Northlander trains. With only 8 through platforms after reconfiguration (leaving room for the possibility to run the line to Pearson or a Western Extension), we're talking about roughly 8-9tph per platform (accounting for rush hour trains terminating at stub platforms) once everything is said and done. I don't think anyone is claiming that terminating Alto trains at Summerhill is a good idea, but rather that depending on how much money we want to spend on this thing, it might be the only affordable option given Union's capacity constraints - at least in the medium term.

I've explained the preferred option above. It does not displace GO

 

[ARG1]

I've explained the preferred option above. It does not displace GO

You didn't exactly mention what the cost of those alternate options are. Like I believe you when you say that there are cheaper and more feasible tunneling options than under Union's foundations, and I'm glad such an option is being looked at as the preferred option (I agree Summerhill would be a bad station choice all things considered), but how much would it eat into Alto's budget, and what would it come at the expense of? I kind of see it as a lesser version of the Mont Royal problem where nobody wants a station at Canora, but that doesn't mean (assuming we have to build the line to QC) spending tens of billions of Mont Royal 2 to have a through station at GC makes sense. At least from an outsider perspective the possibility that such a tunnel is deferred to a later time due to cost doesn't seem that outlandish.

 

[Northern Light]

You didn't exactly mention what the cost of those alternate options are. Like I believe you when you say that there are cheaper and more feasible tunneling options than under Union's foundations, and I'm glad such an option is being looked at as the preferred option (I agree Summerhill would be a bad station choice all things considered), but how much would it eat into Alto's budget, and what would it come at the expense of? I kind of see it as a lesser version of the Mont Royal problem where nobody wants a station at Canora, but that doesn't mean (assuming we have to build the line to QC) spending tens of billions of Mont Royal 2 to have a through station at GC makes sense. At least from an outsider perspective the possibility that such a tunnel is deferred to a later time due to cost doesn't seem that outlandish.

I would love to share more. But I think I've gone about as far as I can at this point.

To be clear, I'm also not on the project team in any capacity. As is so often the case, I simply talk to folks .....