Allowing Prayer sessions during school time

[Peepers]

I'm pretty sure their lower regions are not clean at that time.

I'm pretty sure as well but is that any reason to ostracize young girls and make them feel inferior? NO!

 

[EnviroTO]

Of course it is against the law to kill someone in Canada for being gay but apparently it is not against the law to express the belief that "gays should be executed if caught in the act" as was expressed by a popular local Imam last Sunday (pride day).

But he didn't say that gays should be executed if caught in the act. He said that according to Islamic law, homosexuals should be executed if they are caught in the act. Are you going to tell me that if you go read Islamic law you are going to come to a different conclusion? To say what the law says isn't to say that people should go do it. Religious texts are really old and the old testament of the bible is equally outdated. There are many stupid laws on the books. Islamic law isn't the law of Canada so what it says is informational and not applicable. According to Singapore law, vandals should be caned. According to Ford, its sad if a cyclist gets hit but it is their own damn fault. Stating what is said in a book or by a person is not the same as a call to action. If that Imam told people to do it he should be put behind bars.

 

[Peepers]

But he didn't say that gays should be executed if caught in the act. He said that according to Islamic law, homosexuals should be executed if they are caught in the act. Are you going to tell me that if you go read Islamic law you are going to come to a different conclusion? To say what the law says isn't to say that people should go do it. .

He is not simply reciting what is in the Quran. He is expressing this as his own belief:

Check this out: http://www.thestar.com/news/pride/a...ay-speakers-at-muslim-conference-during-pride

"Philips cheerfully advocated death as a punishment for males who “confess” to homosexual behaviour, or are seen performing homosexual acts by four reliable witnesses"

"he also confirmed that he believes homosexuality is “evil,” like pedophilia and bestiality, and that God gave gays AIDS to penalize them for their deviancy"

It is ironic that he compares homosexuality to pedophilia when you consider that the prophet Muhammad consummated his marriage to his youngest of FOUR wives "Aisha" when she was just 9 years old !!!

EVIL ! EVIL! EVIL!

 

[EnviroTO]

I noticed you cut out the part that didn't fit:

"In a Thursday interview, Philips cheerfully advocated death as a punishment for males who “confess” to homosexual behaviour, or are seen performing homosexual acts by four reliable witnesses, in countries governed by Islamic law."

"In secular countries like Canada, he said, even gays should not be punished."

So basically he is stating that each country has a legal system which should be enforced as makes sense based on that legal system. When you leave Canada and go into other countries it is important to be aware what the rules are in that country because they can be very different from here. Personally I consider the death penalty as unacceptable for any crime but in Vietnam a Canadian was killed for being a drug mule despite evidence she didn't know about the drugs on her, in Singapore an American was caned for vandalism, and around the world there are punishments we find too harsh for items we find to be minor crimes or not crimes at all.

"In the interview, he also confirmed that he believes homosexuality is “evil,” like pedophilia and bestiality, and that God gave gays AIDS to penalize them for their deviancy."

That is in line with what most of the religious right believes. There were a bunch of the religious right that believed hurricane Katrina was a punishment for New Orleans being a sinful city.

 

[EnviroTO]

I'm pretty sure as well but is that any reason to ostracize young girls and make them feel inferior?

Is there evidence the goal of this rule is to make them feel inferior? Is it wise for a person loosing blood due to menstruation to be fasting?

 

[Peepers]

I noticed you cut out the part that didn't fit:



So basically he is stating that each country has a legal system which should be enforced as makes sense based on that legal system. When you leave Canada and go into other countries it is important to be aware what the rules are in that country because they can be very different from here. Personally I consider the death penalty as unacceptable for any crime but in Vietnam a Canadian was killed for being a drug mule despite evidence she didn't know about the drugs on her, in Singapore an American was caned for vandalism, and around the world there are punishments we find too harsh for items we find to be minor crimes or not crimes at all.



That is in line with what most of the religious right believes. There were a bunch of the religious right that believed hurricane Katrina was a punishment for New Orleans being a sinful city.

He stated that in countries governed by Islamic law "homosexuals caught in the act should be executed". This is his belief. He is not simply reciting what is in the Quran. He probably would have prescribed the exact same punishment for Gays in Canada "caught in the act" except for the fact that he could be charged with inciting hatred INSIDE Canada (assuming our law enforcement have any balls to so charge him)

 

[jeff316]

The problem is white, liberal guilt where people are bending over backwards in a effort not to offend. And frankly, I'm getting sick of it.

No, it's that as society evolves there will be changes that make it less recognizable to those who grew up in the more homogenous society before it. And it's natural for many of those who are uncomfortable with change to resist it. That doesn't make them any less wrong to resist it, however.

 

[Tewder]

Change is a two-way street. You really do have to question the motives or sanity of people who come to Canada unwilling to change their dyed-in-the-wool beliefs, be they religious or cultural. They ghettoize themselves as surely as they become ghettoized. It's not even an issue of radicalisation. No way to build a nation, imo.

 

[nfitz]

It's a religious institution, or use to be and so of course they would frown upon homosexuality.

Why would you automatically assume that a religious institution would practice bigotry and prejudice? Many religious institutions don't do this.

You almost imply that there is something wrong with homosexuality - which of course there isn't.

 

[toraerach]

EVIL ! EVIL! EVIL!

Not too far from the school where all this began, one of the most prominent Muslim leaders on the planet is building a huge museum that will be a major asset to Torontonians of all religious affiliations. He chose Toronto because of how we embrace diversity, inclusion, and tolerance. The point I'm trying to make is that there are many brands of Islam, and we should not hold the entire community (communities?) accountable for fringe elements. As a gay man I don't particularly like Islam's teachings on homosexuality, but I am aware that the same Charter of Rights that protects me and my community also protects Muslims (and Christians, and Jews, and Hindus, and any other religious group that takes a dim view of my sexuality). There are also plenty of Muslims who aren't so crazy about my sexuality, but understand that the same Charter that protects them protects me. The Canadian Muslim Congress, for example, endorsed extending marriage rights to same-sex couples at a time when many many other groups did not (for example, the Catholic Church, various Protestant and Orthodox churches, B'nai Brith, the Hutterites, and, yes, the ISNA).

 

[FAC33]

Is there evidence the goal of this rule is to make them feel inferior? Is it wise for a person loosing blood due to menstruation to be fasting?

A woman menstuating is not "losing blood" in the same way someone who cuts their finger would be lonsing blood. She is shedding tissue that built up during the month in case a fertilized egg should implant. The only reason that it looks like blood is that the tissue is well-supplied by blood to nurture a potential fetus.

There is pretty clear evidence in both Islamic texts and Old Testament texts that these strictures arise from the belief that a menstruating woman is "unclean". Many of the same strictures apply after a woman gives birth. It's also interesting that under traditional Jewish law, a woman remains "unclean" for longer after she gives birth to a girl than if she gives birth to a boy (not sure where Islamic law falls in this case.)

 

[Tewder]

Not too far from the school where all this began, one of the most prominent Muslim leaders on the planet is building a huge museum that will be a major asset to Torontonians of all religious affiliations. He chose Toronto because of how we embrace diversity, inclusion, and tolerance. The point I'm trying to make is that there are many brands of Islam, and we should not hold the entire community (communities?) accountable for fringe elements. As a gay man I don't particularly like Islam's teachings on homosexuality, but I am aware that the same Charter of Rights that protects me and my community also protects Muslims (and Christians, and Jews, and Hindus, and any other religious group that takes a dim view of my sexuality). There are also plenty of Muslims who aren't so crazy about my sexuality, but understand that the same Charter that protects them protects me. The Canadian Muslim Congress, for example, endorsed extending marriage rights to same-sex couples at a time when many many other groups did not (for example, the Catholic Church, various Protestant and Orthodox churches, B'nai Brith, the Hutterites, and, yes, the ISNA).

To be fair, the issue and concern here is not about Islam specificially but about the legitimacy of religion of any kind in the public school system. In other words you can't demand to be treated like everyone else in Canadian society but then cry 'Islamaphobia' when you are! Citing the catholic school board situation is a bit of a strawman because nobody here is defending the hypocrisy of that policy and we'd all like to see it changed.

As I've said before, I also find the arguments for 'tolerance' and 'inclusivity' to be a bit silly in that if we make the same rules for all there is absolutely no intolerance or exclusion at issue. We all play by the same rules... and again, if you are so hidebound in your traditional religious/cultural views why the hell would you migrate to a country as fundamentally diverse and pluralist as Canada unless it is to live here physically only but to essentially abdicate and sequester yourself from Canadian society as a whole. We are still a nation despite our differences, after all.

 

[adeel]

Thank you! I rest my case.

Very well, but thanks for ignoring the context of my response. I accept that I'm not going to be able to change your mind on this.

Not too far from the school where all this began, one of the most prominent Muslim leaders on the planet is building a huge museum that will be a major asset to Torontonians of all religious affiliations. He chose Toronto because of how we embrace diversity, inclusion, and tolerance. The point I'm trying to make is that there are many brands of Islam, and we should not hold the entire community (communities?) accountable for fringe elements. As a gay man I don't particularly like Islam's teachings on homosexuality, but I am aware that the same Charter of Rights that protects me and my community also protects Muslims (and Christians, and Jews, and Hindus, and any other religious group that takes a dim view of my sexuality). There are also plenty of Muslims who aren't so crazy about my sexuality, but understand that the same Charter that protects them protects me. The Canadian Muslim Congress, for example, endorsed extending marriage rights to same-sex couples at a time when many many other groups did not (for example, the Catholic Church, various Protestant and Orthodox churches, B'nai Brith, the Hutterites, and, yes, the ISNA).

Excellent points. I think tolerance is the key here - there are things I believe in that you dont, and things you believe in that i dont, but in the end we can get along as long as we respect the right that the other has to hold such opinions as long as they are not forced on the other.

He stated that in countries governed by Islamic law "homosexuals caught in the act should be executed". This is his belief. He is not simply reciting what is in the Quran. He probably would have prescribed the exact same punishment for Gays in Canada "caught in the act" except for the fact that he could be charged with inciting hatred INSIDE Canada (assuming our law enforcement have any balls to so charge him)

It is unfortunate that he has this belief, but as you said yourself this isnt from the quran, but something he has decided on his own. Im a muslim (but not an imam), and I dont think that what he said is appropriate. But he said it and believes it, and I'll have as hard a time changing his mind as I am changing yours.

There is a difference between the opinion of an individual vs the guidance of a religion. It feels like often the two are being blurred together.

A woman menstuating is not "losing blood" in the same way someone who cuts their finger would be lonsing blood. She is shedding tissue that built up during the month in case a fertilized egg should implant. The only reason that it looks like blood is that the tissue is well-supplied by blood to nurture a potential fetus.

There is pretty clear evidence in both Islamic texts and Old Testament texts that these strictures arise from the belief that a menstruating woman is "unclean". Many of the same strictures apply after a woman gives birth. It's also interesting that under traditional Jewish law, a woman remains "unclean" for longer after she gives birth to a girl than if she gives birth to a boy (not sure where Islamic law falls in this case.)

As far as I know a longer waiting period for sons vs daughters does not apply in Islam.

http://woodturtle.wordpress.com/2011/01/15/only-women-bleed-menstruation-in-islam/

A really good article that I linked to earlier that discusses it in an unbiased way.

 

[toraerach]

To be fair, the issue and concern here is not about Islam specificially but about the legitimacy of religion of any kind in the public school system. In other words you can't demand to be treated like everyone else in Canadian society but then cry 'Islamaphobia' when you are! Citing the catholic school board situation is a bit of a strawman because nobody here is defending the hypocrisy of that policy and we'd all like to see it changed.

As I've said before, I also find the arguments for 'tolerance' and 'inclusivity' to be a bit silly in that if we make the same rules for all there is absolutely no intolerance or exclusion at issue. We all play by the same rules... and again, if you are so hidebound in your traditional religious/cultural views why the hell would you migrate to a country as fundamentally diverse and pluralist as Canada unless it is to live here physically only but to essentially abdicate and sequester yourself from Canadian society as a whole. We are still a nation despite our differences, after all.

First of all, many of these kids are born in Canada. Not all Muslims are immigrants. Secondly, these kids aren't sequestering themselves. They attend public school alongside children from many other religious backgrounds (none of whom had a problem with this!). Third, it is legitimate to bring up the Islamophobia issue when a discussion which could have just been about religious accomodation in schools is widened to include mention of terrorists, Sharia law, the married life of Muhammad, etc.

Finally, the rules are, in a way, unintentionally exclusive. Christian and Jewish students, exclusively, get their traditional days of worship off school. Muslim students do not. No one is saying they should. To advocate shaking up the long-held school week is not reasonable. To recognize that Friday is an important day of worship for Muslim students, and to allow them a little bit of space and time during school hours to save them skipping class and heading to mosque seems pretty reasonable to me. Again, the students are happy with this, their parents are happy with this, the teachers, the school admin, and the board are all happy about this. The only people unhappy about this is a fringe Hindu nationalist group that has known anti-Muslim (and Islamophobic) tendencies who decided to make a big deal of all this.

 

[js97]

Interesting how some are defending a religion that openly condones homesexual acts and considers them to be punishible by death, but will jump on the Ford bashing train because he simply doesn't the parade.

I'd be interested in attending this prayer session, take a friday afternoon off and see how 'inclusive' they are.


unfortunately, all of the 'older' religions are generally backwards and completely out of date. 'Gods word' doesn't apply to perpetuity when society and humanity have changed so much.