All aboard for more subways

[Fresh Start]

Thank goodness the tide is turning; sane and logical people are finally outnumbering the LRT minority.
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All aboard for more subways
Streetcars, LRTs won't solve transit woes

Chris Sellors, National Post
Published: Tuesday, May 04, 2010
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/canada/toronto/story.html?id=2982521

There has been a lot of hand-wringing over the provincial government's announcement to postpone more than half of the $8.2-billion it had promised for Toronto's Transit City plan. While the deferral of provincial funds will delay the immediate expansion, it also provides us with an opportunity to rethink the current plan, with its reliance on outmoded light rail lines for major roads such as Eglinton Avenue, in favour of a better, longer term transit plan focused on building more subways.

Imagine our city today had our predecessors not had the foresight to invest in the future of Toronto by building the Yonge subway line over half a century ago. Imagine 2.6 million people trying to move through the city without it. Yet 50 years later, the prevailing wisdom at the Toronto Transit Commission through Transit City is to build more streetcar routes, not subways.

The Transit City streetcar plan is cheap, "low hanging fruit" and is destined to mire Toronto in more neighbourhood traffic gridlock and smog (like the new St. Clair streetcar) while not providing the speed or the passenger capacity we will need. The only reason to proceed with Transit City today would be to create an immediate legacy, but it is a legacy that we cannot afford.

Toronto needs more subways to truly connect the amalgamated city, particularly from west to east like the Yonge subway does from north to south. Subways last 60 years, whereas streetcars (or souped-up Light Rapid Transit/LRT streetcars) last 25 years before a major overhaul is due. Subways do not rob us of road capacity before people are able to leave their cars at home. And the clincher: They carry 10 times the passengers at double the speed.

Those who say that subways are too costly and complicated to build are not only shortsighted, they're just plain wrong. It can be done and here's how: Start by building at least part of a significant new subway line now -- because we do have the money. At $250-million per kilometre, the province's promised $4.6-billion over the next two years for Eglinton would allow us to build more than 18 kilometres of new subway. We could do a portion of an Eglinton Crosstown Subway right now.

Toronto has the money to build now, but we also need to make it a priority for the future, and commit to constructing 1 to 2 kilometres of subway with one station every year until we have the system we envision to service the city we want. The place to start is along Eglinton -- no other new transit line has the potential to serve so many neighbourhoods and integrate with our extensive bus system.

Our predecessors had the wisdom and foresight to take the long view; to build transit capacity that served the city's interests over the long term. We need to continue that legacy and ensure that we do not handcuff future generations of Torontonians by locking them into a substandard streetcar system.

We need to build our transit infrastructure for the Toronto we will have in 50 years, not the Toronto we have now. Let us take the opportunity we have today to build a real transit system for our future.
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As many members including myself have said: Think long term. It has to be RRT (Real Rapid Transit) all the way!

 

[Automation Gallery]

Thank goodness the tide is turning; sane and logical people are finally outnumbering the LRT minority.
---As many members including myself have said: Think long term. It has to be RRT (Real Rapid Transit) all the way!

We need to build our transit infrastructure for the Toronto we will have in 50 years, not the Toronto we have now. Let us take the opportunity we have today to build a real transit system for our future.
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Right on ...finally someone is thinking of the future of this city.

 

[MisterF]

At $250-million per kilometre, the province's promised $4.6-billion over the next two years for Eglinton would allow us to build more than 18 kilometres of new subway. We could do a portion of an Eglinton Crosstown Subway right now.

Or better yet, the DRL all the way from Eglinton East to Dundas West.

 

[The Mad Navigator]

While it's pretty clear that Chris Sellors doesn't know what the hell he's talking about, I'll forgive him, but the rest of the subway or nothing megalomaniacs here, I leave you all with this:

 

[kEiThZ]

The city fathers were wrong. They should have built LRT lines on every avenue instead of building the subway network. How much more European would our city have been if they had done that?

 

[junctionist]

While it's pretty clear that Chris Sellors doesn't know what the hell he's talking about, I'll forgive him, but the rest of the subway or nothing megalomaniacs here, I leave you all with this:

This is just what the LRT or nothing megalomaniacs want you to think. Subways are impossible, we can't afford them, so don't question the multi-billion dollar LRT plan we've put together.

But it just so happens that funding for major transit expansion projects won't be available for a few years and the main proponents of the LRT plan in politics have a few months left in office.

 

[Justin10000]

Wow, I cannot believe members are falling for that populist drivel. Chris Sellors is running for council in Ward 22 St. Paul's. The Yonge subway runs through the ward, as with the St. Clair Streetcar, and the potential ECLRT. Why would he be proposing subways to voters in a ward that is has good transit already,yet most of the resident hop in their BMV's to shop at the Forest Hill Loblaws?

Oh wait...Subways do not rob us of road capacity before people are able to leave their cars at home. He IS pandering to the voters in Ward 22! Build subways, and get transit out of the way of cars!!

I have to admit, I am liking the pro-subway crowd. The more they talk, the less credible they sound. Chris Sellors only wants subways because he care less about transit. It's about making sure cars do not have to share the road with transit. Build a few kms of subway that will do nothing to relieve congestion, and totally stifle any sort of additional transit due to the high cost, and build more roads instead. VOTE FOR CHRIS SELLORS!

 

[M II A II R II K]

Then at least build short subways in the pre-war old city of Toronto where the density better justifies it, and they would act as good relief lines during rush hour.

 

[gweed123]

What would have happend if the same requirements for subways that exist now existed in the 60s? How well would this city work with a Bloor-Danforth LRT, that is tunnelled from Jane to Victoria Park, and then ran at-grade the rest of the way, with only a fraction of the capacity that B-D currently has?

When B-D was built, it didn't even meet the ridership projection requirements to build subway that we have now.

 

[LAz]

Chris Sellor only wants subways, because doesn't want to stop for a streetcar. His BMW SUV must be a guzzler.

The car will not be eliminated, no matter how much you like it. It is still the main form of transportation. So many tram lines would only mess things up. The Metro is the best long term option. Space is of vital impotance. Don't compromise it by building street car lines, especially on a corridor that is going to have much growth. You are capping the potential by putting a tram there instead of a subway.



[moron]Er no, scratch that, some of the best cities in the world in terms of mass transit, like Mexico City, Moscow, London, Berlin, Paris, and Tokyo are probably just silly idiots for building so many Metro lines. Haha, what idiots! And the more i look at their plans the dumber they are! It should have all been LRT! Haha what idiots. How dumb people were in toronto in the 1950s and 1960s when they wanted subways. hahah [/moron]




edit:

When B-D was built, it didn't even meet the ridership projection requirements to build subway that we have now.

That's 'cause they are idiots! Imagine the money that they could have saved (and put in their own pockets) had they built it as a tram!

The best solution is one that aims for the bottom, not the top. You see, in a barrel of appels, the best apples are the ones in the bottom, because those are the sweetest.

 

[gweed123]

Chris Sellors only wants subways because he care less about transit.

Wow, just wow. The hypocracy in that statement astounds me. Wanting a mode of transit that has a higher capacity, higher degree of comfort, and longer lifespan is REALLY caring less about transit.

And how is the Transit City LRT propaganda not "populist drivel"? Hypocrite.

 

[Justin10000]

The car will not be eliminated, no matter how much you like it. It is still the main form of transportation. So many tram lines would only mess things up. The Metro is the best long term option. Space is of vital impotance. Don't compromise it by building street car lines, especially on a corridor that is going to have much growth. You are capping the potential by putting a tram there instead of a subway.

road space is vital. That is why you maximize road space by building ROW's for transit. One Transit vehicle carry a lot more passengers than a car. Efficient use of road space. You argument is so anti-transit it's funny.

[moron]Er no, scratch that, some of the best cities in the world in terms of mass transit, like Mexico City, Moscow, London, Berlin, Paris, and Tokyo are probably just silly idiots for building so many Metro lines. Haha, what idiots! And the more i look at their plans the dumber they are! It should have all been LRT! Haha what idiots. How dumb people were in toronto in the 1950s and 1960s when they wanted subways. hahah [/moron]

Those cities have a diverse mix of metros, LRT, BRT, and bus lines that complement each other in a good transit network. A network composed of just subways, and buses does not make for a good transit network, especially if you are replacing buses with subways! It's amazing ma y people do not get this. The Yonge Line, the B-D line replaced streetcars that were at capacity. Successful lines. The Sheppard line replaced a bus line. Failure! You need streetcars/LRT to the fill role between buses, and subways.
Of course, I do not expect you to understand from reading your posts.

 

[Justin10000]

Wow, just wow. The hypocracy in that statement astounds me. Wanting a mode of transit that has a higher capacity, higher degree of comfort, and longer lifespan is REALLY caring less about transit.

And how is the Transit City LRT propaganda not "populist drivel"? Hypocrite.

The guy is a candidate in a ward that ALREADY has a subway! He is riding the populist wave! I guess he wants to build a subway down Avenue Road!
Read his comments. It's all about making sure transit is out of the way of cars.You are telling me that is pro-transit? Please.
Yep. Promoting a plan that will give neighbourhoods better transit than the current crowded buses is populist drivel.
The subway blinders are tight over your eyes.

 

[gweed123]

Those cities have a diverse mix of metros, LRT, BRT, and bus lines that complement each other in a good transit network. A network composed of just subways, and buses does not make for a good transit network, especially if you are replacing buses with subways! It's amazing ma y people do not get this. The Yonge Line, the B-D line replaced streetcars that were at capacity. Successful lines. The Sheppard line replaced a bus line. Failure! You need streetcars/LRT to the fill role between buses, and subways.
Of course, I do not expect you to understand from reading your posts.

How is replacing a streetcar that runs in mixed traffic with a subway different from replacing a bus route that runs in mixed traffic with a subway? If they have similar ridership numbers before the upgrade, what difference would it make what the technology being used before the subway was?

 

[gweed123]

The guy is a candidate in a ward that ALREADY has a subway! He is riding the populist wave! I guess he wants to build a subway down Avenue Road!
Read his comments. It's all about making sure transit is out of the way of cars.You are telling me that is pro-transit? Please.
Yep. Promoting a plan that will give neighbourhoods better transit than the current crowded buses is populist drivel.
The subway blinders are tight over your eyes.

He's not trying to get transit out the way of cars, he's trying to get cars out of the way of transit! There's a big difference.

And did I miss a whole paragraph on the Avenue Road subway? Because I definitely didn't read that. And why does someone running in a ward that already has a subway make his opinion on subway expansion invalid? Should the only people allowed to comment on LRT expansion those who live along the Waterfront, Spadina, and St. Clair? Granted they aren't full LRTs, but they're the closest thing we have to it.