A theory about Rob Ford's support base

[Tewder]

Reciprocating intolerance to intolerant groups, as Coool advocates, and as you are defending, leads us nowhere and is a genuinely hypocritical thing for someone who is a victim of historical intolerance (eg. a gay person) to say.

Really?? So we have to be tolerant of intolerance... and I as a gay man should just shut up and accept intolerance and be grateful for being tolerated at the moment? Again, the ideology here trips up on itself.

To argue that Canada is without a value system is patently wrong. If nothing else we can point to our legal books, constitution and charter for sign posts that start to frame it. As with any concept of freedoms (of speech etc) there are reasonable limits and I would suspect that the concept of tolerance is probably similar.

 

[Hipster Duck]

Really?? So we have to be tolerant of intolerance... and I as a gay man should just shut up and accept intolerance and be grateful for being tolerated at the moment? Again, the ideology here trips up on itself.

That's not what I said at all. You should be angry and demand acceptance from these groups, but to basically wall yourself off from homophobic immigrants does not do the gay community any favours. At best, it propagates a stereotype of gays as being just another special interest group with a chip on their shoulder. At worst, you make uneasy bedfellows with anti-immigrant straight people who, incidentally, despise gay people only slightly less than Muslims and would gladly stab you in the back if the immigrants were out of the picture.

To argue that Canada is without a value system is patently wrong. If nothing else we can point to our legal books, constitution and charter for sign posts that start to frame it. As with any concept of freedoms (of speech etc) there are reasonable limits and I would suspect that the concept of tolerance is probably similar.

Nowhere did I say that we don't have a value system. I would, however, qualify that the value system is broad and open to interpretation, as are laws and the constitution. It's also a very malleable value system that changes with the inclusion of new groups, generational shifts, the advent of new technologies, etc.

 

[archanfel]

Ford ain't even been sworn in yet...I imagine his track record in Etobicoke wasn't that bad, he served a couple of terms there.

Let's see what he does, as for his support base..it's alotta different people from different walks of life

IIRC, Etobicoke has a huge immigrant population, yet they support Ford overwhelmingly. I don't know where people get the idea that Ford is against immigrants or vice versa.

I also find it extremely funny that just before the election, somebody said gay people are generally open minded and liberal. Yet from the last several posts, you'd think some of they are ready to patrol the Mexican border.

 

[Marko]

The silent majority of the suburbs, perhaps. The areas of the city with higher densities all voted against him.

Higher densities often come with higher numbers of rental units - meaning a higher number of people who don't actively pay property taxes. A higher percentage of those 'in the burbs' are more aware exactly how much tax they pay and see that 75% of the tax money is focussed on 25% of the city. It has to be weighted to the core of course, as this is the engine of the entire area - but the Miller regime and 'enlightened urbanites' have become quite flippant and dismissive to those who question their authority - and people simply get sick of being spoken down to.

Now, Toronto's property taxes have been kep low for some time and even Ford concedes they will have to continue to rise - but what taxpayers want is someone who will not tell them the city is broke and needs to raise taxes, only to find any number of ways to piss this increased tax money away. They know money needs to be spent on transit and bike lanes, but they want that money spent on efficient transit instead of pet projects, and bike lanes not located on steets like University and Jarvis. They want project cost overuns and delays to be limited, and they want the public sector unions to be brought to a level that is as obscenely out of touch with the private sector.

Heaven forbid people actually want an accountable public service.

 

[Tewder]

That's not what I said at all. You should be angry and demand acceptance from these groups, but to basically wall yourself off from homophobic immigrants does not do the gay community any favours. At best, it propagates a stereotype of gays as being just another special interest group with a chip on their shoulder. At worst, you make uneasy bedfellows with anti-immigrant straight people who, incidentally, despise gay people only slightly less than Muslims and would gladly stab you in the back if the immigrants were out of the picture.

So gay people are just whiners if we oppose belief systems that view homosexuality as a sin punishable by death? Sorry Hipster, but demanding acceptance from some is simply a waste of time, not to mention somewhat degrading. You see, in this home I call Canada, I do not need to seek 'acceptance' from others. I am entitled to be here, to be free and open and equal. This is entrenched in our laws, as a reflection of our national ethos/value system etc... and it's a pretty easy litmus test really since my being gay has absolutley zero impact on any other, in any way.

.... AND, nowhere did I claim to be anti-immigrant or say anyting at all that would imply I am, so please stop with that straw-man argument. We must be accepting of people but we must not be accepting of all belief systems and cultural practices. Again, this whole notion that it is intolerant to be intolerant of intolerance is truly a most disingenuous and contorted line of reasoning.

 

[archanfel]

So gay people are just whiners if we oppose belief systems that view homosexuality as a sin punishable by death? Sorry Hipster, but demanding acceptance from some is simply a waste of time, not to mention somewhat degrading. You see, in this home I call Canada, I do not need to seek 'acceptance' from others. I am entitled to be here, to be free and open and equal. This is entrenched in our laws, as a reflection of our national ethos/value system etc... and it's a pretty easy litmus test really since my being gay has absolutley zero impact on any other, in any way.

.... AND, nowhere did I claim to be anti-immigrant or say anyting at all that would imply I am, so please stop with that straw-man argument. We must be accepting of people but we must not be accepting of all belief systems and cultural practices. Again, this whole notion that it is intolerant to be intolerant of intolerance is truly a most disingenuous and contorted line of reasoning.

You can oppose a particular view all you want, but you can't force your beliefs onto others or prevent others to exercises their constitutional rights just because of their beliefs. Well, you can try, that's your constitutional rights I guess. However, as Hipster pointed out, it's not doing you or your people any favours.

 

[Tewder]

You can oppose a particular view all you want, but you can't force your beliefs onto others or prevent others to exercises their constitutional rights just because of their beliefs. Well, you can try, that's your constitutional rights I guess. However, as Hipster pointed out, it's not doing you or your people any favours.

Not all beliefs or practices are protected by the constitution or law, which is sort of my point to begin with. Even an individual's right to faith-based religious beliefs ends where another's individual rights begin. Tricky, I grant you.

... and as for my 'people' I'm also an atheist too so I guess I really better start kissing arse for acceptance from others.

 

[cgguy]

Higher densities often come with higher numbers of rental units - meaning a higher number of people who don't actively pay property taxes. A higher percentage of those 'in the burbs' are more aware exactly how much tax they pay and see that 75% of the tax money is focussed on 25% of the city. It has to be weighted to the core of course, as this is the engine of the entire area - but the Miller regime and 'enlightened urbanites' have become quite flippant and dismissive to those who question their authority - and people simply get sick of being spoken down to.

Now, Toronto's property taxes have been kep low for some time and even Ford concedes they will have to continue to rise - but what taxpayers want is someone who will not tell them the city is broke and needs to raise taxes, only to find any number of ways to piss this increased tax money away. They know money needs to be spent on transit and bike lanes, but they want that money spent on efficient transit instead of pet projects, and bike lanes not located on steets like University and Jarvis. They want project cost overuns and delays to be limited, and they want the public sector unions to be brought to a level that is as obscenely out of touch with the private sector.

Heaven forbid people actually want an accountable public service.

Thank you Marko, this is one of the more intelligent post I've seen on these forums in a while.

Rob Ford awakened a lot homeowners who were less willing to vote in prior elections. Simple as.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Except of course the audit put forward by a bunch of Scarborough councillors has actually shown that the downtown getting all the attention is a myth. What I do suspect is that people are taking the fact that the inner suburbs are changing (from the pristine state it was) badly - I suspect no amount of work will reverse what is a natural process with cities.

AoD

 

[archanfel]

Not all beliefs or practices are protected by the constitution or law, which is sort of my point to begin with. Even an individual's right to faith-based religious beliefs ends where another's individual rights begin. Tricky, I grant you.

... and as for my 'people' I'm also an atheist too so I guess I really better start kissing arse for acceptance from others.

If we are still on the topic of Rob Ford as mayor, then the best you could do is to silence people which I find distasteful, but also futile. You can not force people to accept you (not sincerely at least), all you can do is to earn their trust and respect.

 

[Tewder]

Yes, we did get a little off topic.

As for Ford, I think I started off by saying that I didn't perceive him to be anti-immigrant. I think it's okay for a society to discuss its immigration policy, or its need /lack thereof for population growth, without the discussion being anti-immigrant or somehow racist.

 

[duper]

What's interesting about many Ford supporters is that they're just generally fed up with politics, and subscribe to a rather cynical "all politicians are crooks" philosophy. Whenever Rob Ford looks like an idiot, it further endears him.

Rob Ford is also a liar, and a huge one at that. He regularly gets caught in lies. This is reconciled in the minds of many of his supporters that it's all okay, because they'd rather have a leader who is a huge liar BUT BAD AT IT, rather than a leader who is of few lies, but tells them well. Basically, many feel that his lies will be balanced out by the fact that media scrutiny will reveal them quite easily.

"I'm a Bad Liar" may not be a great campaign slogan, but it works here.

 

[archanfel]

What's interesting about many Ford supporters is that they're just generally fed up with politics, and subscribe to a rather cynical "all politicians are crooks" philosophy. Whenever Rob Ford looks like an idiot, it further endears him.

Rob Ford is also a liar, and a huge one at that. He regularly gets caught in lies. This is reconciled in the minds of many of his supporters that it's all okay, because they'd rather have a leader who is a huge liar BUT BAD AT IT, rather than a leader who is of few lies, but tells them well. Basically, many feel that his lies will be balanced out by the fact that media scrutiny will reveal them quite easily.

"I'm a Bad Liar" may not be a great campaign slogan, but it works here.

Considering Ford got elected by 47% of the votes, if that represents a group that is "fed up with politics, and subscribe to a rather cynical "all politicians are crooks" philosophy" and would take a "Bad Liar" over Smitherman, I'd say the current crops of good liars need to do some soul searching.

 

[GraphicMatt]

They do, but there is something of an idealogical bubble with these anti-government/anti-politics people. They have this weird kind of faith that certain candidates can, as if by magic, eliminate the bureaucracy and complex nature of government and thus lower taxes while retaining services.

This bubble will inevitably burst on its own.

 

[archanfel]

They do, but there is something of an idealogical bubble with these anti-government/anti-politics people. They have this weird kind of faith that certain candidates can, as if by magic, eliminate the bureaucracy and complex nature of government and thus lower taxes while retaining services.

This bubble will inevitably burst on its own.

I think the real bubble is that the government can, as if by magic, eliminate inefficiency in the system and provide services to all. The government can't and the end result is always bureaucracy and a very complex organization that is wasteful and dysfunctional.

However, I don't think Ford being elected burst that bubble.