2018 Provincial Election Transit Promises

[steveintoronto]

But we've been debating nomenclature for quite some time and no one seems to agree on anything, so can we please drop it?

Do as you please, but it's essential to understand what Ford means by "Subway"...he's stated it incessantly, and continues to do so. You may not want to understand what he means, but sure as hell many do. I find it very clear as to what he's referring to. He references it constantly. Some wish it to be otherwise. Reality just might intercede to force Ford to eat his words. It's called "budget".

And he's referring to what Toronto refers to as the *present* subway. Most of us know what that is.

The Toronto subway is a rapid transit system serving Toronto, Ontario, Canada, operated by the Toronto Transit Commission (TTC). It is a multimodal rail network consisting of three heavy-capacity rail lines operating predominantly underground and one elevated medium-capacity rail line, collectively encompassing 75 stations and 76.9 kilometres (47.8 mi) of track.[1][2] In 1954, the TTC opened Canada's first underground rail line then known as the Yonge subway, under Yonge Street between the existing Union railway station and Eglinton Avenue with 12 stations. With an average of 950,700 passenger trips each weekday recorded during the fourth quarter of 2016,[3] the system is Canada's second busiest after the Montreal Metro and second longest by track length after the Vancouver SkyTrain.
[...]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_subway

THAT is what he's intending to extend out to Timbuktu Downtown Mall Donuts and Emporium. And Sudbury too, of course.
And Mimico! Subway to Mimico Folks! The People have spoken!

New Etobicoke bus service could be the start of new transit options
Posted Jun 25, 2018 6:02 pm EDT
[...]
Designs are now starting to take shape for a new GO Station at the site of the former Mr. Christie’s factory. Etobicoke-Lakeshore Councillor Mark Grimes is convinced he can get Premier-designate Doug Ford to back the plan.

“I think all systems go on that, everything’s on board,” said Grimes. “I worked with [Ford], he’s a former Etobicoke councillor. He knows the area very well. Gonna make sure that we push this forward.”

The bigger unknown is the future of the Waterfront Transit Reset, a vision that would connect the entire stretch of Etobicoke from Long Branch straight through to Union Station. The plan calls for some dedicated right-of-ways for transit vehicles and signal priority for streetcars.

A similar plan was shelved by previous Toronto Mayor Rob Ford, with both Rob and Doug Ford saying they prefer subways over streetcars and buses. Doug Ford’s office did not respond to a request for comment from CityNews today regarding transit along the waterfront, but the current mayor isn’t jumping to conclusions. [...]

http://www.680news.com/2018/06/25/new-etobicoke-bus-service-start-new-transit-options/

"Isn't jumping to concussions" is more like it...

 

[JSF-1]

A Metro/subway has NOTHING to do with the technology or whether it is elevated, underground, or at grade. A Metro/subway is an electrified train service that is completely grade separated for it`s entire length. You could have a debate about frequencies but suffice to say that if the system runs at least every 15 minutes all day then it is a subway.

You see I cannot agree with you here because in one fell swoop you just called something like Japan's Tokaido Shinkansen a Subway because its grade separated, electrified and operates every 15 minutes. Not to mention however many countless Commuter Rail services from Asia and Europe as well.

I don't know about you, but this certainty doesn't look like a subway to me.

 

[Randomguy]

If you want to follow the 'subways are anything underground' line of thinking, fine. Does Ford then demand that all LRT projects currently underway are completely buried? Why should Ottawa or London have to put up with their roads being ripped up when Toronto doesn't? How about Mississauga? Why should their roads be clogged by a giant streetcar?!

Ottawa's "LRT" is a fully grade separated system with no interaction with other modes of transportation (Cars, Bikes, Pedestrians, Busses), and for the most part, the only road that got ripped up was the previous bus only transitway. It also never steals existing lanes/territory from other modes of transportation. Because of this (and pairing it with a small highway expansion), it was able to garner widespread public support (including unanimously in council), in a way in which nothing in the GTA can get - and this is despite having wards that consist solely of farmers fields. By doing this, you fundamentally add capacity to the transportation network of the city, and this to me, is what should be meant by "subway". Most (if not all) of GO RER would fall into a similar category as this

This puts it in a very different class than the Hurontario LRT which will fight with traffic, the KW LRT, which really fights with traffic, or transit city, or others of that ilk. Those projects all involve robbing Peter to pay Paul by reducing road capacity to add transit. These plans are guaranteed to stir up opposition from many citizens, and tend to be hybrid choices at best, and are done via a series of comprises that leaves nobody ahead.

 

[Rainforest]

Ottawa's "LRT" is a fully grade separated system with no interaction with other modes of transportation (Cars, Bikes, Pedestrians, Busses), and for the most part, the only road that got ripped up was the previous bus only transitway. It also never steals existing lanes/territory from other modes of transportation. Because of this (and pairing it with a small highway expansion), it was able to garner widespread public support (including unanimously in council), in a way in which nothing in the GTA can get - and this is despite having wards that consist solely of farmers fields. By doing this, you fundamentally add capacity to the transportation network of the city, and this to me, is what should be meant by "subway". Most (if not all) of GO RER would fall into a similar category as this

This puts it in a very different class than the Hurontario LRT which will fight with traffic, the KW LRT, which really fights with traffic, or transit city, or others of that ilk. Those projects all involve robbing Peter to pay Paul by reducing road capacity to add transit. These plans are guaranteed to stir up opposition from many citizens, and tend to be hybrid choices at best, and are done via a series of comprises that leaves nobody ahead.

I think both types of light rail have their place in the transit systems.

However, you explained very nicely why the Ottawa's LRT project is so popular and the locals view it on par with Toronto / Montreal subways, notwithstanding the fact that the Ottawa system will use light-rail vehicles and run mostly above ground.

 

[Rainforest]

Do as you please, but it's essential to understand what Ford means by "Subway" ... Reality just might intercede to force Ford to eat his words. It's called "budget".

You are bang on with the second sentence.

And that makes understanding what Ford means quite a bit less important. We can surely predict that he will advance one or two projects at most, before being forced to relegate the rest of his "subway" promises into the undefined future in order to afford his tax cuts.

 

[44 North]

And he's referring to what Toronto refers to as the *present* subway. Most of us know what that is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_subway

THAT is what he's intending to extend out to Timbuktu Downtown Mall Donuts and Emporium. And Sudbury too, of course.

Well, with the exception of Line 3 which is included in that Wiki link but Ford does not consider a subway. Which is unfortunate. If fiscal conservatives (or whatever brand of crazy you call Ford) considered Line 3 to be a subway, and vowed to improve/expand it or build similar elsewhere, I think they'd get close to unanimous support.

You see I cannot agree with you here because in one fell swoop you just called something like Japan's Tokaido Shinkansen a Subway because its grade separated, electrified and operates every 15 minutes. Not to mention however many countless Commuter Rail services from Asia and Europe as well.

I don't know about you, but this certainty doesn't look like a subway to me.

Or a more closer example, the Link train at Pearson - which is automated and fully grade-separated. I don't think anyone would consider that a subway either. However I do agree with ssiguy that ability for automation is one of the defining characteristics to describe what a subway is. But that's *one of*, not the single defining feature. Others could be capacity (above 5-10k pphpd), low fares, high peak frequency, grade-separation from road/rail, etc.

 

[steveintoronto]

Most (if not all) of GO RER would fall into a similar category as this

Does that include airplanes too?
But only if they're fully automated, but never see the light of day, and only on Sundays when Ford has both his fingers crossed behind his back and his socks don't match?

I think you just might have nailed it.

Oddly, here's what Google thinks subway trains are:

https://www.google.ca/search?q=subw...3Cm_DbAhWIjlQKHQZqA3oQ7AkIQg&biw=1280&bih=857

And I and most others, but crucially Ford. would agree. Albeit Ford's specialty is TTC gauge, so there's absolutely no possibility of interoperability with any other trackage in Ontario, or Canada, and only one other in the World. Oh, save for maybe a kilometer or so at the Halton County Railway Museum.

For some odd reason, even with the hundreds more pics that Google gladly supplies if clicking "more"...not one Metrolinx vehicle shows, future RER or otherwise.

Why do think that might be?

Not to worry though! The People will tear down the barriers that lock Folks to their fetters! Folks can have their TTC gauge and eat it too!

Changing to Automatic Track Gauge Changeover - Inventing Europe
www.inventingeurope.eu/story/changing-to-automatic-track-gauge-changeover
A part of the automatic track gauge changeover system SUW 2000. ... in the form of automatic axle gauge-changing devices mounted on locomotives and wagons. ... been developed, including theSpanish Talgo-RD, the Swiss CAF-BRAVA, the ... many technical problems, especially when theborders of nations changed.[...]

And those hard seats for the two hour ride in from the Outer Durham Badlands? The People all deserve a cushion of their own! Goats and donkeys not allowed during rush hours...

Subways, Subways. Subways!

 

[W. K. Lis]

Wonder if Doug Ford will consult with "experts" from GM or other auto manufacturers on the future of public transit in Ontario? We know how bad that turned out, see link.

 

[Streety McCarface]

This puts it in a very different class than the Hurontario LRT which will fight with traffic, the KW LRT, which really fights with traffic, or transit city, or others of that ilk. Those projects all involve robbing Peter to pay Paul by reducing road capacity to add transit. These plans are guaranteed to stir up opposition from many citizens, and tend to be hybrid choices at best, and are done via a series of comprises that leaves nobody ahead.

Actually, a significant portion of the KW lrt does not nearly fight with traffic as much as any of the other lines you mention. The section between Northfield and Uptown runs on the waterloo spur (an used rail corridor) utilizes lift gates, and the section south of downtown is run on the side of the road and also utilizes lift gates. The only section that is run in the street is between Uptown Waterloo and south of Downtown kitchener, and considering that those sections saw road expansions on Weber st and 2 new grade separations for the GO line, that was a huge deal for cars.

 

[ssiguy2]

I don`t understand the real need of the Waterfront LRT especially the western section. GO RER will be running frequent and much faster service and Liberty Village and Spadina are getting new stations and probably Park Lawn as well. What's the point of the LRT as it will be much slower and less reliable due to street interaction? The Eastern part I can see as it will serve the new Portlands and Donlands which will not be well served by the DRL/RER and go significantly further south of the rail corridor so will be servicing a huge population that the DRL & GO/RER can't.

 

[Randomguy]

Actually, a significant portion of the KW lrt does not nearly fight with traffic as much as any of the other lines you mention. The section between Northfield and Uptown runs on the waterloo spur (an used rail corridor) utilizes lift gates, and the section south of downtown is run on the side of the road and also utilizes lift gates. The only section that is run in the street is between Uptown Waterloo and south of Downtown kitchener, and considering that those sections saw road expansions on Weber st and 2 new grade separations for the GO line, that was a huge deal for cars.

But having lived on Erb street, the diagonal across Erb and Caroline that leads to that spur is going to be an absolute nightmare (and not just for Cars, but pedestrians and cyclists too). It will also limit the effective frequency (another key driver of good transit) of service. Obviously, Ottawa is much larger, but Ottawa LRT will start with 3 minute peak service, will be at 5 minutes throughout the day (weekdays and weekends) and will be capable of 105 second frequency (34 trains per hour). KW's LRT on the other hand is only planned for 8 minutes at peak and will be at 15 minutes most other times, and it is likely quite limited to go much faster than 8 minutes .

Furthermore, by removing trains from intersections/roads and keeping them grade separated, you also provide far better and faster service to transit users. Ottawa LRT to start will go 12.5km in 24 minutes (31.25 kph) wheras ION is 19km in 46 minutes (24.8kph). Phase 2 of the Ottawa LRT makes this even better, as it will go from Moodie to Trim (about 39.5km) in 50 minutes for an average speed of 47.5kph.

 

[syn]

Ottawa's "LRT" is a fully grade separated system with no interaction with other modes of transportation (Cars, Bikes, Pedestrians, Busses), and for the most part, the only road that got ripped up was the previous bus only transitway. It also never steals existing lanes/territory from other modes of transportation. Because of this (and pairing it with a small highway expansion), it was able to garner widespread public support (including unanimously in council), in a way in which nothing in the GTA can get - and this is despite having wards that consist solely of farmers fields. By doing this, you fundamentally add capacity to the transportation network of the city, and this to me, is what should be meant by "subway". Most (if not all) of GO RER would fall into a similar category as this

This puts it in a very different class than the Hurontario LRT which will fight with traffic, the KW LRT, which really fights with traffic, or transit city, or others of that ilk. Those projects all involve robbing Peter to pay Paul by reducing road capacity to add transit. These plans are guaranteed to stir up opposition from many citizens, and tend to be hybrid choices at best, and are done via a series of comprises that leaves nobody ahead.

The original Scarborough LRT plan was completely grade separated yet the Fords insisted on suggesting it will rip up roads and that it needed to be underground.

You're completely wrong about the Hurontario LRT - it has widespread support (85%).

Based on your reasoning, our first priorities should be to eliminate the streetcar system and have them replaced with subways. Transit is not meant to make things easier for drivers (and to encourage more of them), it's meant to make it possible to travel without a car.

 

[innsertnamehere]

I think Hurontario has wide spread support because most don't realize it's going to remove a lane for most of Hurontario - The traffic along Hurontario is going to be far worse once it's installed - and I bet you will see support drop as people realize this.

 

[syn]

I think Hurontario has wide spread support because most don't realize it's going to remove a lane for most of Hurontario - The traffic along Hurontario is going to be far worse once it's installed - and I bet you will see support drop as people realize this.

Hard to believe at this point - they've released plenty of information.

If Ford wants to make it about a 'war on the car', then sure. But otherwise people (including the ones I've spoke to) seem quite excited at what it's going to provide for Mississauga.

 

[innsertnamehere]

what do you think the average person's depth of knowledge on the subject is in Mississauga? You would probably be lucky if a majority of people in the city are even aware it is being constructed, yet alone that it will remove a lane.