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2018 Provincial Election Transit Promises

Well before discussing this any further, we'd best figure out what Ford means by a "subway" and what most Torontonians do, which is why I've been using the term "orthodox subway". You are misunderstanding much of my gist, and I never stated 'RER on road' albeit such does exist on the South Shore Line if you really want to flog a monkey. (Technically, it's an Interurban, but I digress)
That's a big mistake that was made during the Rob Ford era.
Everyone new that Ford meant that "subway" meant grade-separated.
I think the City and Province took him literally - likley in order to sabatoge his plans. He was perfectly fine with the Black Creek Drive area being elevated. He was perfectly fine with the portion through STC being elevated. Yet they still planned the entire Eglinton as underground. I don't think Ford was involved in this. He provided the general direction - and the details were left to others. The result was numerous cancellations and changes in plan that have cost us 8 years.

This time, hopefully those in charge of details are a bit smarter. They have to show how the lower cost options still satisfy the intent of the campaign promise and the idea that transit would be rapid and reliable. Sell the idea to Ford that transit will be out of the way of cars, when in fact you are really saying that cars will be out of the way of transit.[/QUOTE]
 
Ford argued the SRT ran at grade in local traffic. I think you guys are expecting a lot to get a definitive answer from ford what subways mean to him. It's likely just a word which he can spin in whatever direction he wants at the moment.
 
This time, hopefully those in charge of details are a bit smarter. They have to show how the lower cost options still satisfy the intent of the campaign promise and the idea that transit would be rapid and reliable. Sell the idea to Ford that transit will be out of the way of cars, when in fact you are really saying that cars will be out of the way of transit.
This is absolutely essential. I was just reviewing what Ford has stated, and unfortunately, he has made it clear he means the *present system, TTC gauge et al, extended out to the regions*.

That is just pure absurdity. We have an excellent approach now to do that, albeit the implementation leaves a lot to be desired: RER. @Streety McCarface has made an argument that he may not realize embraces that. He's talked his position in circles. I will detail that later, I have an important meeting to get to shortly.

From memory, he proclaims how Crossrail (gist) 'used already extant RoW for much of its distance' (this is only partially true, but I digress, all the rail used is new even when on existing RoW). And that's exactly one of the thrusts of the logic of using RER! Metrolinx have already discussed RER vehicles and methods extensively, albeit I think they'll go for single deck EMU for many reasons, not least minimizing station dwell time. And there's a myriad of suppliers who can provide 'off-the-shelf' examples, and I agree with him on high level platforms, a la UPX. Toronto already has ample if not very opportune radial lines serving the core, and two cross-town routes, all of which can be accessed and served *sharing track* once electrified (as projected) such that Toronto's core can be served by RER in tunnel through-running into and out of the core onto various lines already extant. This would serve many purposes, including mooting the need for further Union Station expansion, expanding the present subway, and the City having to be key in financing it.

The concept is far from being mine. I was just searching now for reference to post later on how "subway love" (of the orthodox kind) has gotten this city into a bind and on the hook for the price. And itching to do it even further, and clog the already critically overloaded lines doing it.

Who would want to take the subway downtown in NY or London when there's heavy rail alternatives like LIRR/Metro-North in and The Overground, Thameslink, Crossrail, Network Rail etc in London, two heavy rail systems in Paris, etc, etc?
 
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Ford argued the SRT ran at grade in local traffic. I think you guys are expecting a lot to get a definitive answer from ford what subways mean to him. It's likely just a word which he can spin in whatever direction he wants at the moment.
Exactly, in an ironic way. Just use "folks" and "the people" and it all makes sense to him. His inability to define what he means is Trumpism writ large. QP needs a Huckster...whoops...Huckabee to snarl and reinterpret the Bible According to Ford.
 
When I refer to "subway" I refer to underground transit here. When I refer to scarborough, and the suburbs having heavy rail transit, I mean having subway technology (the rolling stock used on the existing subways) run grade separated yet aboveground.

This is exactly the point I made earlier. I was referring to subway technology, not a layperson's idea of what a subway is (anything underground).

The Ottawa LRT is not considered a subway just because a few stops are underground.

Having an LRT subway in Scarborough and north of finch would be stupid, if you're going to tunnel more than 5 km, just make it a full-fledged grade separated line with heavy rail.

You don't have to tunnel most of it. As it's been pointed out many times, if all they want is a 'subway' put a small portion underground and the rest above ground. It's not as though the ridership justifies anything more. Even you've admitted as much with comments such as 'we don't know what's going to happen in the next century'.
 
That is just pure absurdity. We have an excellent approach now to do that, albeit the implementation leaves a lot to be desired: RER. @Streety McCarface has made an argument that he may not realize embraces that. He's talked his position in circles. I will detail that later, I have an important meeting to get to shortly.

The concept is far from being mine. I was just searching now for reference to post later on how "subway love" (of the orthodox kind) has gotten this city into a bind and on the hook for the price. And itching to do it even further, and clog the already critically overloaded lines doing it.

Who would want to take the subway downtown in NY or London when there's heavy rail alternatives like LIRR/Metro-North in and The Overground, Thameslink, Crossrail, Network Rail etc in London, two heavy rail systems in Paris, etc, etc?

I like the metro concept, however, I don't believe it makes sense for existing subway lines or the DRL. RER should be taking more of that appraoch.

And everyone takes the subway downtown in the cities you mention: (of course there is a limit to the distances), but if we take a look at LIRR since they have ridership statistics. Far Rockaway LIRR station sees 1,200 passengers per day while Far Rockaway-Mott Ave on the subway sees around 5,200 passengers per day. It takes an hour and a half on the subway while it takes 57 minutes.

Jamaica station is strange; it sees "over 200,000 PPD". While this might seem reasonable, The daily ridership of Penn Station is 231,140 passengers per day for LIRR operations, and Atlantic Terminal sees 27,850 passengers per day. With the LIRR seeing only 354,800 passengers per day, these numbers don't add up, so it leads me to believe that the "over 200,000 PPD number" refers to the number of passengers passing through the station, meaning few to none are boarding/alighting at the station, and those that are boarding/alighting at the station are heading towards or from Long Island, and not Penn Station.

Atlantic Avenue–Barclays Center sees around 46,000 daily users, while the LIRR users only use the station 27,850 times daily. Since this is a terminal station, there is proof that the subway is necessary to facilitate these "metro" systems.

The Long Island city branch has quite pathetic ridership when compared to the 7 subway line. Woodside station, which allows access to both Penn and LIC, only sees about 5728 riders per day (which are most likely alightings from Long Island). Compare this to the 61st street-Woodside station which sees upwards of 18,000 passengers per day (throw in the entire flushing line and the LIRR pales in comparison). This happens at Flushing Main Street, Mets Willis point, Forest Hills,

The same can be said about the Metro North: University heights sees less than 183rd st station (Jerome Avenue line), Marble Hill's ridership is made up of alightings from southbound commuters (with a significant portion transferring to the subway), etc.

London Overground sees 630,000 daily riders (over 160 km) while the 33 km Jubilee line sees a good 712,000 daily users. Most people prefer the subways because they go the places people want to go. Overground is special in that it serves the city itself and not the suburbs, and that explains its high ridership in comparison to Metro North and LIRR. However, its ridership is nowhere near that of the Tube and never will be.

These outer city stations are not used by people heading into the city because it's not efficient
 
This is exactly the point I made earlier. I was referring to subway technology, not a layperson's idea of what a subway is (anything underground).

The Ottawa LRT is not considered a subway just because a few stops are underground.



You don't have to tunnel most of it. As it's been pointed out many times, if all they want is a 'subway' put a small portion underground and the rest above ground. It's not as though the ridership justifies anything more. Even you've admitted as much with comments such as 'we don't know what's going to happen in the next century'.

The underground section is considered a subway, it's an underground electric railroad. It's not a heavy rail subway and never will be. To the earlier point, I'm confused as to what you're trying to say. I have issues with the city trying to increase the number of transfers. They can easily run the majority of the SSE aboveground if they wanted to using heavy rail subway rolling stock, but tunnelling for some reason is the preferred method.

Yonge north already justifies a subway. Sure, it's probably a good idea to make the section north of steeles as it crosses the 407 aboveground (as they should have done with the TYSSE) but that doesn't negate the need for heavy rail north of finch.
 
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This is exactly the point I made earlier. I was referring to subway technology, not a layperson's idea of what a subway is (anything underground).
It seems hopeless for him to realize that he's talking to persons who've lived and worked in many nations, and use a more neutral international understanding of the terms.

The Ottawa LRT is not considered a subway just because a few stops are underground.
He thinks it does, and so do others evidently. It renders any sensible discussion on what constitutes an 'orthodox subway' by North Am standards, let alone international ones, moot.

It means Ford can rant all he likes, and it makes sense in the comprehensions of many. God help us all...

I'm reminded of the Far Side cartoon, where: (Insert "Doug" for "Dogs" and "Subway" for "Ginger")
upload_2018-6-25_16-31-20.png


And that pertains directly to this:
March 19, 2018
Why doesn’t London build an RER network, like Paris did?
By Jonn Elledge

I’ve heard many people make many different complaints about the Parisian transport system. That it does a bad job of linking a rich, white city with its poorer, more diverse suburbs. That, even as subway systems go, it’s a hostile environment for women. That the whole thing smells distractingly of urine.

I’m familiar with all of these complaints – I’ve often smelt the urine. And I’m aware that, in many ways, London’s is the superior transport network.

And yet I can’t help be jealous of Paris – In large part, because of the RER.

Paris, you see, has not one but two underground railway systems. The more famous one is the original Paris Metro, opened in 1900: that’s the one with those fancy green portals with the word “metropolitain” written above them in a vaguely kooky font.

The Metro, though, mostly serves Paris Intra-muros: the official city, inside the Boulevard Périphérique ring road, site of the city’s last set of walls. As a result, it’s of very little use in most of the city’s suburbs. Its stations are very close together, which places a limit on how fast its trains can cross town. It was also, by the mid 20th century, becoming annoyingly overcrowded.

So starting in the 1960s, the city transport authorities began planning a second underground railway network. The Réseau Express Régional – Regional Express Network – would link suburban lines on either side of Paris, through new heavy rail tunnels beneath the city. Its stations would be much further apart than those of the metro – roughly one every 3km, rather than every 600m – so its trains can run faster.

And fifty years and five lines later, it means that 224 stations in the suburbs of Paris are served by trains which, rather than terminating on the edge of the city, now continue directly through tunnels to its centre.

London is, belatedly, doing something similar. The Elizabeth Line, due to open in stages from later this year, will offer express-tube style services linking the suburban lines which run west from Paddington to those which run east from Liverpool Street. And Thameslink has offered cross-town services for 30 years now (albeit not at tube-level frequencies). That, too, is going to add more routes to its network over the next few years, meaning direct trains from the southern suburbs to north London and vice versa.

Yet the vast majority of suburban National Rail services in London still terminate at big mainline stations, most of which are on the edge of the centre. For many journeys, especially from the south of the city, you still need to change to the London Underground.

So, could London ape Paris – and make Thameslink and Crossrail the first element of its own RER network?

In a limited way, of course, it’s doing just that. The next big project after Crossrail is likely to be (original name, this) Crossrail 2. If that gets funding, it’ll be a new south-west to north-east route, connecting some of the suburban lines into Waterloo to those in the Lea Valley.
[...]
https://www.citymetric.com/transport/why-doesn-t-london-build-rer-network-paris-crossrail-elizabeth

But of course, to some, they're all "subways"....which means Ford can say whatever he likes, and it all means the same.

I guess Dougie just means pedestrian underpasses...

sub·way
ˈsəbˌwā/
noun
  1. 1.
    NORTH AMERICAN
    an underground electric railroad.
    synonyms: underground (rail system), metro, train;
    informaltube
    "taking the subway to Yankee Stadium"
  2. 2.
    BRITISH
    a tunnel under a road for use by pedestrians.
    synonyms: underground (rail system), metro, train;
    informaltube
    "taking the subway to Yankee Stadium"
Or does he mean the sandwiches? Hold the relish!
Doug Ford says he would build Downtown Relief Line before extending Sheppard subway
Councillor Ford's subway line ranking is notable because it differs from Mayor Ford, who has cited the Sheppard and Finch lines ahead of the Downtown Relief Line
[...]
The sparks at the debate began when Mr. Ford singled out Mr. Goldkind as a “big, rich defence lawyer.” Mr. Goldkind later responded that Mr. Ford knew more than anyone about the need for defence attorneys, prompting the councillor to demand a retraction. “I’ve never needed a defence attorney in my life,” he shot back.

The audience gave Mr. Goldkind mixed reviews for saying that FORD stands for “falsify, overstate, repeat and deny.”
[...]
http://nationalpost.com/news/doug-f...-relief-line-before-extending-sheppard-subway
 

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A Metro/subway has NOTHING to do with the technology or whether it is elevated, underground, or at grade. A Metro/subway is an electrified train service that is completely grade separated for it`s entire length. You could have a debate about frequencies but suffice to say that if the system runs at least every 15 minutes all day then it is a subway.

Egliton is not a subway and nor is Edmonton LRT but the Scar SRT is as is the Sao Paulo Monorail system and the Manilla elevated LRT system. RER could easily become a complete and huge subway system if it was to become totally grade separated which it could have been if QP had spent less money on parking garages and more on overpasses.

The best way to define a Metro/subway is the easiest...……...if it can hypothetically be automated it`s a Metro and if it can`t then it`s not. Period.
 
The underground section is considered a subway, it's an underground electric railroad. It's not a heavy rail subway and never will be. To the earlier point, I'm confused as to what you're trying to say.

I'm referring to the post the back and forth that started with:

https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threa...l-unfunded-planned.7404/page-376#post-1348731

It was in another thread, which I wasn't quite sure of as all of these threads seem to be going in a similar direction.

My point is that a subway in Toronto refers to a specific type of heavy rail transit that travels mostly underground.

If you want to follow the 'subways are anything underground' line of thinking, fine. Does Ford then demand that all LRT projects currently underway are completely buried? Why should Ottawa or London have to put up with their roads being ripped up when Toronto doesn't? How about Mississauga? Why should their roads be clogged by a giant streetcar?!

I have issues with the city trying to increase the number of transfers. They can easily run the majority of the SSE aboveground if they wanted to using heavy rail subway rolling stock, but tunnelling for some reason is the preferred method.

An LRT or upgraded RT doesn't add a transfer.

Transfers are a fact of life when it comes to transit usage, especially if you're traveling long distances. It's perfectly reasonable that I'd have to transfer if I wanted to head north from Kennedy. Kind of like how I can't go from Dundas West to Yonge and Eglinton without a transfer. I'd also add that commuters downtown not only have to deal with transfers, they have to deal with taking a streetcar that can take far, far longer than the RT currently does to travel the same distance.

Yonge north already justifies a subway. Sure, it's probably a good idea to make the section north of steeles as it crosses the 407 aboveground (as they should have done with the TYSSE) but that doesn't negate the need for heavy rail north of finch.

Not given the other needs in the system, and certainly not given the volume it would handle.

As a direct connection I'd agree it makes sense, eventually. As long as they address the core of the system, which is in desperate need of expansion, I don't have a problem with it.
 
TORONTO CITY HALL INSIDER: Ford, Heads & Beds, subways for suburbs and the need for real road safety
By Matt Elliott in Opinion, Politics | June 25th 2018

Toronto City Council is set to kick off a three-day meeting Tuesday, their first since Doug Ford was elected Ontario’s next premier, and some city councillors are using the opportunity to tell Ford they think some of his major election promises suck.

[...]

Ford backs suburban subways, but no-shows Mammoliti’s suburban subway meeting
Premier-designate Ford surprised and confused a whole lot of people last Thursday when he claimed he would push for subway service all the way to suburban Pickering and Markham — a transit plan that would, in reality, costs bazillions of dollars. Despite his subway push, Ford didn’t show up at a public meeting about the Finch West light rail transit plan held by Metrolinx in the northwest part of the city on Thursday night.

Coun. Giorgio Mammoliti had made a show of inviting Ford, suggesting the new premier (and longtime pal and political ally) would be eager to cancel the LRT line and build a subway instead. Ford’s absence gives Toronto transit riders some hope that the new premier won’t take an axe to all the city’s established, contracted and under-construction transit plans.

[...]
https://www.nationalobserver.com/20...heads-beds-subways-suburbs-and-need-real-road

And yet again, what Ford touts as "subways" is more of what Toronto now has, not LRTs, metros or magic carpets. It's very clear what Ford means by "subways" for many of us. Just not all evidently.

Ford and Tory on same track?
Antonella Artuso TorSun
Published:June 25, 2018

Premier-designate Doug Ford is open to a sit down with Mayor John Tory “soon,” but he wants to talk subways.

“The Ontario PCs have a plan to invest $5 billion in new subway funding on top of the $9 billion already available to close the Sheppard Loop with Scarborough, build the Relief Line, and the Yonge Extension to Richmond Hill,” Ford spokesperson Simon Jefferies said Monday in an e-mail.

Meanwhile, Tory said he’s aware that Ford is busy right now and “didn’t think it was realistic or even courteous” to push hard for an immediate meeting.

Tory repeatedly said he intends to promote the need for provincial funding for a “city council-approved transit network,” and he mentioned the proposed waterfront light rail transit project.

“I’m absolutely determined in a conciliatory and business-like way to sit down with the government of Ontario … to move the transit plan forward,” Tory said Monday. “It’s not a secret that he’s somebody who favours subways. It’s not a secret that I, too, favour making sure we have a regional network. That’s what Smart Track and Regional Express Rail are all about.”

Councillor Mark Grimes said he spoke with Ford Thursday to ensure the incoming premier understands the city’s priorities for transit includes a waterfront LRT which, if fully built as planned, would stretch from the Mississauga border all the way to Woodbine Avenue.

“He’s an Etobicoke politician, so I know he knows the area very well but I just want to show him the plan,” Grimes said. “We’re not going to be building a subway on our waterfront for sure … He’s agreed to look at it so that’s all I can ask for.”

Grimes said he gets along with Ford and Tory, and he’s prepared to bring the two sides together, if needed.

Ford had previously run against Tory, and was planning a rematch in the fall municipal election campaign but switched to provincial politics after Ontario PC leader Patrick Brown resigned.
http://torontosun.com/news/provincial/ford-and-tory-on-same-track
 
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The best way to define a Metro/subway is the easiest...……...if it can hypothetically be automated it`s a Metro and if it can`t then it`s not. Period.
Bit of a problem with that:
Partially-automated trains are currently used on four lines (Jubilee, Central, Victoria and Northern).[2] These trains still require operators to open and close doors, and to assist in case of emergency. This method of working will be extended to the other lines by 2022 and will also be used on Thameslink and Crossrail.

There are already driverless trains in operation on London second rapid transit system, the Docklands Light Railway (DLR), although this is a relatively newly built system.[3]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automation_of_the_London_Underground
'Driverless' Tube trains: See inside TfL's new fleet for London Underground
Trains will be first ‘walk-through, air-cooled’ carriages on deep-level lines
Plans for a fleet of “driverless” Tube trains have been unveiled by Transport for London (TfL).

The fleet of 250 trains, which are not expected to be in service on the Tube until the mid-2020s, will start out with an operator on board, but will be designed and built to be “capable of fully automatic operation”.

The trains are part of what Mayor Boris Johnson has called the “New Tube for London”, the plans for which claim will increase the passenger capacity by thousands. [...]
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...fls-new-london-underground-fleet-9785034.html
 

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