2018 Provincial Election Transit Promises

[Neutrino]

They should take the entire TTC. Get the city out of it.

Say hello to more suburban subways.

 

[44 North]

The Ontario Liberals are promising to slash the GO Transit fare to $3 for all journeys within Toronto, as well as for short trips anywhere on the network

I'm having trouble with this. Wouldn't it make sense to slash all GO fares, period. So they all effectively go down ~$2. Seems to me it'd create an odd discrepancy within the GO fare structure if there's only a decrease for ultra-short haul, but the rest stays the same. On that thought, someone should make a GO fare heatmap. Then factor in this promise to see if it presents itself as strange as I'm imagining it.

 

[MisterF]

^I don't know for sure but I've heard that GO fares favour longer distances, which means that fares within the 416 are higher on a per kilometre basis. Could be that reducing fares only in Toronto brings them more in line with fares in the suburbs.

Yes, but they have different regulations. I couldn't find an article with the Canadian context, but our situation is similar to the American one. The cost of everything in Europe is much higher, but not subways. Why? Because unions in the USA (and Canada) require 4 times as many personnel on site. https://www.citylab.com/transportat...pensive-to-build-urban-rail-in-the-us/551408/

Metrolinx isn't wasteful. Unions are, as is the former Minister in charge who pushed for planners to cook the books and justify 2 unnecessary RER stops in his riding in Vaughan.

If what you're saying is true, sounds like those regulations are your issue, not unions per se. You're throwing the baby out with the bathwater. But that doesn't explain why construction costs in other cities in Canada, let alone other countries, are lower when they have the same unions. Unions make an easy villain but you can blame politics, management and ingrained institutional culture every bit as much. Complicated problems rarely have simple solutions.

Say hello to more suburban subways.

So business as usual?

 

[rbt]

Say hello to more suburban subways.

If property taxes weren't expected to cover the operating subsidies, I would be okay with that.

Income tax at the provincial level has far more indirect pull. Coming up with $100M/year in income tax revenue as a result of suburban subway expansion is possible. Coming up with $100M/year of new property tax revenue in the same situation doesn't happen; instead we chop other services to subsidize the new subway service.

That said, I'd like to see GO services hit 5 minute frequencies with bus service integration before building any kind of regional underground service.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

They should take the entire TTC. Get the city out of it.

The problem with the TTC isn’t governance, it’s money. Uploading the TTC without additional funding is just reshuffling the deck chairs. If you want to see how well that will work out, look no further than NYC.

I want to hear specifically if the Province is planning a very substantial permanent funding boost for the TTC. Anything less than that is suspect

 

[JSF-1]

That said, I'd like to see GO services hit 5 minute frequencies with bus service integration before building any kind of regional underground service.

I to would love to see GO transition from what it is today to something more like a German S-Bahn or Japanese Commuter rail system but we're still a long ways away from that. I know it would require a change in signalling from the current system to something like a CBTC or ATS system. I know this would require some sort of regulation change at the federal level and VIA would also need to be on board since its trains would also operate along the lines. CN and CP would also need to be relegated to there own tracks and bared from using ML trakage. It's easier said than done. It works in a city like Tokyo but only because for example freight trains have been banned in the city since like the 60's after a train exploded at Shinjuku station. Aswell at that time Freight operations were still nationalized as part of JNR so when the lines were upgraded to ATS (or ATC) both the passenger and freight fleets were upgraded as well, but thats just me going on a tangent. none the less moving to 5 minute frequencies in our case will be an uphill battle.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Say hello to more suburban subways.

Eveerything would move faster regardless.

The problem with the TTC isn’t governance, it’s money. Uploading the TTC without additional funding is just reshuffling the deck chairs. If you want to see how well that will work out, look no further than NYC.

I want to hear specifically if the Province is planning a very substantial permanent funding boost for the TTC. Anything less than that is suspect

NYS keeps making cuts because of budgetary issues, so does the MBTA (MA). Ontario wouldn't do that.

 

[hw621]

I to would love to see GO transition from what it is today to something more like a German S-Bahn or Japanese Commuter rail system but we're still a long ways away from that. I know it would require a change in signalling from the current system to something like a CBTC or ATS system. I know this would require some sort of regulation change at the federal level and VIA would also need to be on board since its trains would also operate along the lines. CN and CP would also need to be relegated to there own tracks and bared from using ML trakage. It's easier said than done. It works in a city like Tokyo but only because for example freight trains have been banned in the city since like the 60's after a train exploded at Shinjuku station. Aswell at that time Freight operations were still nationalized as part of JNR so when the lines were upgraded to ATS (or ATC) both the passenger and freight fleets were upgraded as well, but thats just me going on a tangent. none the less moving to 5 minute frequencies in our case will be an uphill battle.

To me 5 min frequency seems an unnecessary redundancy, at least not for the next several decades. In Toronto we just do not, and for a long time in the future will not, have the population or density as in Germany or Japan to justify that frequency. 15 min or better is a good enough deal.

 

[Leo_Chan]

To me 5 min frequency seems an unnecessary redundancy, at least not for the next several decades. In Toronto we just do not, and for a long time in the future will not, have the population or density as in Germany or Japan to justify that frequency. 15 min or better is a good enough deal.

Then let's put all 36M people in Canada into the GTA and then see what happens

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

DRL as it's conceptualized now is pretty flawed though. And a beefed up Sheppard Subway could do away with the need for a Finch West LRT, saving between $1.2-$1.5 billion instantly.

We can pick our battles. Leaving Sheppard as a permanent stubway is a wasted opportunity. The dream of getting from Dufferin to McCowan in under 30 minutes via Sheppard is mighty appealing to many potential voters. You may not see it nor agree with that course of action but I would be mightily satisfied if Sheppard + SSE were up and running by 2025. It's what voters at the door are telling the PCs and these same constituents view the Liberals as dishonest and untrustworthy on the file.

Is it? DRL as it is conceptualized now will have a ridership far higher than any of the other proposed lines.

AoD

 

[Streety McCarface]

Is it? DRL as it is conceptualized now will have a ridership far higher than any of the other proposed lines.

AoD

It should be built before anything else, even the Finch West LRT, but we can have other projects running concurrently.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

It should be built before anything else, even the Finch West LRT, but we can have other projects running concurrently.

Of course, but that's not the tenor of the discussion - especially if one is looking for "flaws" while pushing some third rate line up the priority list.

AoD

 

[JSF-1]

To me 5 min frequency seems an unnecessary redundancy, at least not for the next several decades. In Toronto we just do not, and for a long time in the future will not, have the population or density as in Germany or Japan to justify that frequency. 15 min or better is a good enough deal.

At the moment yes 5 minute headways would be a bit much. I do still maintain though that even when we move to the 15 minute service level we need to drop the current mentality that GO is stricly a "Suburban Commuter service" and move to an "Urban Commuter service". It's no longer shuttling people from the burbs into the city but now about moving people from city to city and everywhere in between.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The problem with the TTC isn’t governance, it’s money. Uploading the TTC without additional funding is just reshuffling the deck chairs. If you want to see how well that will work out, look no further than NYC.

I want to hear specifically if the Province is planning a very substantial permanent funding boost for the TTC. Anything less than that is suspect

NYS keeps making cuts because of budgetary issues, so does the MBTA (MA). Ontario wouldn't do that.

Seriously? You do realize that the leader of the Official Opposition is running in a platform of cutting $6 Billion from the budget (and more would need to be cut for his promises to be realistic). Firing literally every single Ontario public worker would not be enough to save that amount of momey. So what makes you so sure that Ontario is immune to transit cuts?

 

[rbt]

At the moment yes 5 minute headways would be a bit much.

I agree. I said 5 minute GO headways before building underground suburban metro service.

If GO is struggling to keep up with passenger loads despite running at maximum practical capacity, then its time to build additional track the expensive way. Reality is, we're 50 years away from needing expensive to operate/maintain additions like the Spadina Extension.

GO service + local buses should be able to carry a couple million trips per day. A ring route (like Highway 407 LRT) would be a great addition.


Ultimately, I wouldn't care if the demand for underground capital wasn't coupled with a demand for reduced taxation. Those 2 demands are direct opposites.