2018 Provincial Election Transit Promises

[JSF-1]

It's not 1954 anymore. The Yonge Line cost around $60 Million to build, which would be roughly $560 Million today. We have to be a lot more conservative with our money today.

$560 Million is a steal for 7.4 km of Subway today. Sucks it will never be that cheap again.

 

[nfitz]

Small nitpick on Sheppard East. The Federal contribution was moved to cover Finch. So there may be a shortfall.

Two more nitpicks. It was moved, on the basis that it was a swap, so province is now 100% funding Sheppard. And Finch West is dead in the water given the contract is yet to be awarded, and will be effectively cancelled if the Liberal government doesn't sign it before the election is called in May - unless they somehow win.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Are you seriously arguing that Dundas West and Victoria Park are now inadequate to handle current capacity?

Are you seriously trying to suggest that dwell time at these stations is an issue? Unless there's a crew change or a train delay due to an emergency, etc. it takes a matter of seconds for passengers to disembark and board.

Your argument is ridiculous.

The argument is not for decreasing dwell times, but increasing the capacity of trains running. I don't think that's a ridiculous premise. New York doesn't have huge overcrowding problems because their trains are massive; 8 car 75ft trains, or 11 car 51ft trains. (it is their signals that do not allow for headways less than 5 minutes on most lines).

 

[Streety McCarface]

It's not 1954 anymore. The Yonge Line cost around $60 Million to build, which would be roughly $560 Million today. We have to be a lot more conservative with our money today.

They don't even have to build the platform extensions when they build lines; just leave room for future work, meaning not locating utilities so close.

The thing is the price of building something with Subway Capacity is massive. I think we might be better off building 2 lower capacity lines than one massive line that gets underused for a long time.

A difference in opinion is fine, I just think it's more logical to build fewer higher capacity lines with certain priority over a long period of time rather than low capacity lines that do little to nothing to shorten trip times. We need to see how Eglinton runs east of Science Centre before we build more light rail lines so we don't have to retrofit everything when the time comes.

 

[facepalming_brooklynite]

New York doesn't have huge overcrowding problems

???

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The argument is not for decreasing dwell times, but increasing the capacity of trains running. I don't think that's a ridiculous premise. New York doesn't have huge overcrowding problems because their trains are massive; 8 car 75ft trains, or 11 car 51ft trains. (it is their signals that do not allow for headways less than 5 minutes on most lines).

???

Oh boy. Yea, they have massive overcrowding problems that make Yonge Line’s crowding look like child’s play.

 

[syn]

It's not 1954 anymore. The Yonge Line cost around $60 Million to build, which would be roughly $560 Million today. We have to be a lot more conservative with our money today.

Not only that, but there was really nowhere to go but up at that point. They had maxed out the streetcar capacity on Yonge.

It's a far different situation from, say, the SSE where an LRT could handle riders effectively for generations.

 

[syn]

The argument is not for decreasing dwell times, but increasing the capacity of trains running. I don't think that's a ridiculous premise. New York doesn't have huge overcrowding problems because their trains are massive; 8 car 75ft trains, or 11 car 51ft trains. (it is their signals that do not allow for headways less than 5 minutes on most lines).

For the third time, this is the question I asked:

"Please provide examples of transit infrastructure built in Toronto that have become inadequate in a short time period."

Most of the stations you mention are far from inadequate. Would having longer trains be a good thing? Sure. Does that make all stations inadequate? No. Victoria Park station opened 50 years ago. I have heard virtually no reports of overcrowding being an issue there. Same for the entire Bloor Line. In fact, I'd argue overcrowding won't be a problem on the Bloor Line for many years, especially with the Eglinton Crosstown opening.

You're right - subway infrastructure is meant to last a long time. That doesn't mean a subway line is supposed to support ridership increases indefinitely. You have to expand the system. Toronto has spent the last half century not expanding the system where it's needed it most. To argue that stations like Dundas West and Victoria Park are now inadequate is silly.

And you're completely wrong about NYC not having overcrowding problems.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Not only that, but there was really nowhere to go but up at that point. They had maxed out the streetcar capacity on Yonge.

It's a far different situation from, say, the SSE where an LRT could handle riders effectively for generations.

The Yonge Streetcar was running at something crazy like 45 second headways at the time. I would love to see those headways in action today!

 

[W. K. Lis]

See Spacing Toronto, at this link, for an article on
What a Doug Ford government will do about (or to) transit

In the next few days, work crews will begin tearing up the intersection of Finch Ave. West and Martin Grove — deep in the heart of Ford Nation – in order to shift some buried Enbridge gas lines.

This isn’t a City project; however. It’s the latest chapter of the Finch West LRT construction project, which has been in the ground for many months, with a great deal of work underway. As of late January, 2018, in fact, Metrolinx had spent $236.3 million on the line, or approximately a fifth of the 2010 budget of $1.2 billion, according to agency spokesperson Anne Marie Aikins.

Remember this non-trivial figure (roughly equivalent to a 10% property tax hike) when Progressive Conservative leader Doug Ford begins yelling about infrastructure and transit in Greater Toronto. This seemingly inevitable gong-show will rumble through the election campaign, and almost certainly feature threats to wrest the subway system away from the City of Toronto as well as ice or cancel approved LRT projects and the Relief Line, that subway tailor-made, we’ll be assured, for Toronto’s champagne-swilling elites...

 

[Avenue]

I disagree with Lorinc. Canceling the Finch LRT is a great opportunity for Ford to flex muscles. And it wouldn't create much backlash since the project itself is very low-profile and the area is extremely likely to vote conservative anyway.

Highly doubt the people who do vote are that excited about a surface LRT in general.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Oh boy. Yea, they have massive overcrowding problems that make Yonge Line’s crowding look like child’s play.

The Lexington Avenue line is quoted as the busiest subway line in the country. Its total length is around 15 km, and has 4 tracks - 2 local, 2 express. This is pretty much the same as the yonge subway, so length can be ignored. The line sees around 1,200,000 users per day, and sees subway frequencies at around every 2:30 per track; 1:15 per direction. Each train has a stated capacity of 1880 passengers (188*10). The Yonge subway sees 500,000 passengers on trains with a capacity of ~1200 people arriving every 2:30 minutes. The number of trains needed to move that number of people is as follows:

Yonge Subway: 417 trains, taking 17.375 hours assuming one direction of movement
New York Subway: 639 trains, taking 13.31 hours assuming one direction of movement

This is proof that the Yonge subway is the busiest subway line in North America and is even more of an issue than people seem to want to admit.

The Yonge Streetcar was running at something crazy like 45 second headways at the time. I would love to see those headways in action today!

The 504? Throw in the 501 and 505? A subway was long overdue.

A streetcar every 45 seconds means a 2 car subway is filled every 3 minutes assuming everything is at crush load.

 

[muller877]

I disagree with Lorinc. Canceling the Finch LRT is a great opportunity for Ford to flex muscles. And it wouldn't create much backlash since the project itself is very low-profile and the area is extremely likely to vote conservative anyway. Highly doubt the people who do vote are that excited about a surface LRT in general.

The travesty is that the Liberals have not progressed these project further along than moving some gas lines and engineering. Passing the buck vs building it themselves.

I think Doug Ford should at least hit pause to try and understand why so much money is going to consultants and not to actually building things. These costs are huge and I have zero faith that the Liberals have (or are planning) to spend the money wisely. We need a Commission just like they had in Quebec.

Doug Ford has repeatedly said it is taking too long to build transportation. Most recently the road/train through the Ring of Fire. I'm very hopeful that the tax dollars will be spend building transit vs paying for study after study.

 

[hw621]

The travesty is that the Liberals have not progressed these project further along than moving some gas lines and engineering. Passing the buck vs building it themselves.

I think Doug Ford should at least hit pause to try and understand why so much money is going to consultants and not to actually building things. These costs are huge and I have zero faith that the Liberals have (or are planning) to spend the money wisely. We need a Commission just like they had in Quebec.

Doug Ford has repeatedly said it is taking too long to build transportation. Most recently the road/train through the Ring of Fire. I'm very hopeful that the tax dollars will be spend building transit vs paying for study after study.

While I agree we should build faster and spend more wisely, I am not sure Ford, or any other Ontario politicians, will have the political will and power to make it happen. The interests and force behind those consulting firms are tremendous....

 

[syn]

Doug and his brother accomplished virtually nothing on the transit file (or any other file for that matter) when they were in City Hall.

If anything, the Ford's ushered Toronto into an era of corruption and inefficiency. I expect nothing less from him as Premier.