2018 Provincial Election Transit Promises

[nfitz]

Obviously a Pickering connection is not happening on our lives.

Probably not - but that's essentially what Premier Davis and Transport Minister James Snow promised Pickering and Oshawa 40 years ago.

Until their Progressive Conservative replacements cancelled it. Though I don't think any Progressive Conservative leader has been particularly Progressive (or progressive) since Davis.

 

[muller877]

I never understood why we can't build subways or LRT's that go diagonal

Smarttrack/RER will be going diagonal. UPX already does

If you want to go diagonal outside of existing ROW's you would have to purchase the rights (even if its underground). Becomes cost prohibitive

 

[Streety McCarface]

Not fair!

Some of those peripheral New York City routes operate less trains than Lakeshore East/West which is missing from Toronto! With the $3 GO fares in 2019 (if not cancelled by Ford), it should become put on subway maps.

Which NYC lines have worse than 15-minute service with the exception of the SIR? (because no one gives a damn about Staten island)

 

[Streety McCarface]

From this link.

Subway systems at the same scale

Transport for London

New York City
New York City Subway, Staten Island Railway, PATH

Montreal
STM

Toronto
TTC

Pickering would end up off past London's extreme right. And just the U in downtown, unlike the other cities in the link.

While it looks like Toronto's subway is already far out into the suburbs, it actually isn't when compared to areas like London and New York. The only difference is that those two cities know how to run transit above ground in the suburbs, something I hope the TTC learns how to do soon.

 

[nfitz]

Which NYC lines have worse than 15-minute service with the exception of the SIR? (because no one gives a damn about Staten island)

Gosh, I've just missed an L train before in the late evening, in Manhattan, and had to wait 20 minutes for the next one - which was what the schedule said! And that's in Manhattan! Somehow I'm not sure service improves as you get out into the other boroughs! I've heard that train is a bit more frequent since then - but at the same time of day (about midnight), the longest scheduled wait for a subway in Toronto is about 6 minutes.

Similarly PATH service can easily be a 20-minute wait, mid-day on a weekend! Heck, checking the schedule now, it's only every 12 minutes in Manhattan mid-day, and every 20 minutes in the evening.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Gosh, I've just missed an L train before in the late evening, in Manhattan, and had to wait 20 minutes for the next one - which was what the schedule said! And that's in Manhattan! Somehow I'm not sure service improves as you get out into the other boroughs! I've heard that train is a bit more frequent since then - but at the same time of day (about midnight), the longest scheduled wait for a subway in Toronto is about 6 minutes.

Similarly PATH service can easily be a 20-minute wait, mid-day on a weekend! Heck, checking the schedule now, it's only every 12 minutes in Manhattan mid-day, and every 20 minutes in the evening.

Ah, PATH service is that bad, but you'll never be waiting for a subway train for more than 10 minutes unless it's late or you're in the overnight schedule.

 

[steveintoronto]

There's an obvious trend I've seen and it is Single-Tier cities (at least large ones) tend to be the worst at getting things done.

Excellent post. You exactly caught my drift. Obviously I'm far from the first wondering if Toronto represents a case of political deadlock, expected to affect change and innovation on one hand (thus the Toronto Act) without the power to do it (although alluded to in the Act, but the tools come without batteries).

Meantime Waterloo Region comes to mind of an example where two-tiered governance seems to be quite effective. This gives rise to wondering if even for transit alone, a 'super region' of the GTHA is possible or even desirable?

Taken to the extreme, the only way forward for Toronto is with City-State status, and the Constitution has no avenue to permit or support that, or the forcing a province to allow it. Meantime Toronto (and all other cities in Canada, albeit some provinces accord greater powers than Ontario) is purely a vassal of QP. Tory tested that with tolling the DVP, an entirely rational approach provided for in the Toronto Act but shot down via fiat by Wynne.

The cities that seem best at doing things all have far more power than Toronto does and have a split between who deals with local level issues,and who deals with City wide issues.

Examples include London and its 32 Boroughs ,

London is an excellent example that I was thinking of, especially when it comes to transit issues, albeit it took a struggle to reform what is effectively the GLC after Thatcher gutted it.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-35716693

I wonder if it's worthwhile starting a new string here at UT to discuss this issue more specifically as it relates to Toronto? This point has to be coming to a 'boil' again with the impending mayoral election.

To be continued...

 

[nfitz]

Ah, PATH service is that bad, but you'll never be waiting for a subway train for more than 10 minutes unless it's late or you're in the overnight schedule.

Looking at the schedule, it's still bad for the PATH subway sections in Manhattan.

Quickly looking at various Sunday schedules, many non-Manhattan lines start service every 20 minutes around midnight.

So it is not never. I'd hardly call midnight "overnight". Looks like the L train however, has been improved to every 10 minutes - which is still dreadful by Toronto standards.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Ah, PATH service is that bad, but you'll never be waiting for a subway train for more than 10 minutes unless it's late or you're in the overnight schedule.

The fare for PATH is around $2.75 USD. However, they have a farebox recovery ratio of 44.1% (the fraction of operating expenses which are met by the fares paid by passengers. It is computed by dividing the system's total fare revenue by its total operating expenses).

Philadelphia SETA's ratio is around 38.5%. Montreal is around 45.9%, New York City 47.3%, The TTC's farebox recovery ratio is around 66.9%. GO Transit's ratio is around 76.6%. From link.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Looking at the schedule, it's still bad for the PATH subway sections in Manhattan.

Quickly looking at various Sunday schedules, many non-Manhattan lines start service every 20 minutes around midnight.

So it is not never. I'd hardly call midnight "overnight". Looks like the L train however, has been improved to every 10 minutes - which is still dreadful by Toronto standards.

I mean, when you consider the fact that many train lines run in one subway tunnel, you begin to understand why they have lines run at such low frequencies. It makes a lot of sense, you have a rapid transit line serving the suburbs, yet when you get downtown or a core are (ie Concourse), frequencies increase significantly. On top of it, you have express services, making your commute that much faster.

The fare for PATH is around $2.75 USD. However, they have a farebox recovery ratio of 44.1% (the fraction of operating expenses which are met by the fares paid by passengers. It is computed by dividing the system's total fare revenue by its total operating expenses).

Philadelphia SETA's ratio is around 38.5%. Montreal is around 45.9%, New York City 47.3%, The TTC's farebox recovery ratio is around 66.9%. GO Transit's ratio is around 76.6%. From link.

Comparing SEPTA to PATH is kind of illogical, especially since SEPTA also takes care of regional rail and buses, which usually makes less money than the subways. The better comparison is of the PATCO Speedline and PATH, where each have recovery ratios of 49.4% and 44.1% respectively.

 

[nfitz]

I mean, when you consider the fact that many train lines run in one subway tunnel, you begin to understand why they have lines run at such low frequencies. It makes a lot of sense, you have a rapid transit line serving the suburbs, yet when you get downtown or a core are (ie Concourse), frequencies increase significantly.

I"m not aware that the PATH only had one track! Are you sure? It was certainly double-track out in Harrison, where it's outdoors, and into WTC. I haven't taken the Manhattan branch often enough to figure out the configuration.

Not sure that's the reason though - trains were less frequent out in Harrison - I think only every 20 to 30 minutes on a Sunday.

Last time I took it, PATH fare was the same as the regular NYC subway lines. And I used the same fare card.

 

[rbt]

Philadelphia SETA's ratio is around 38.5%. Montreal is around 45.9%, New York City 47.3%, The TTC's farebox recovery ratio is around 66.9%. GO Transit's ratio is around 76.6%. From link.

Unfortunately, what that page doesn't mention (in an obvious way) is that the thing it's measuring is different for each agency.

Farebox recovery ratio is a %age of operations; what is considered operations versus capital varies. For example, station ceiling painting (operations or capital?), escalator/elevator maintenance (basic maintenance like cleaning, oiling, etc.), etc.

TTC has gotten really good at packaging up things that used to be operations (like quarterly escalator maintenance) into $100M capital projects. They do this because capital funds flow freely from city debt while operations funds do not.

Simply put, a chunk of TTCs ~$700M/year SOGR budget may be considered operations in other cities on that list; and vice versa.


This is a bit like measuring city populations. The arbitrary boundaries of municipalities don't really tell you about the population of the region and it takes some fiddly work to compare urban areas on equal terms. To get a good picture of spending efficiency for a transit agency you need to consider capital for non-expansion purposes in addition to operations.

 

[syn]

While it looks like Toronto's subway is already far out into the suburbs, it actually isn't when compared to areas like London and New York. The only difference is that those two cities know how to run transit above ground in the suburbs, something I hope the TTC learns how to do soon.

Unfortunately Toronto suburbs have been largely convinced that above-ground transit is evil.

I wonder why...

 

[Streety McCarface]

Unfortunately Toronto suburbs have been largely convinced that above-ground transit is evil.

I wonder why...

People will complain about everything, even underground transit during construction.
On-Street LRT -- Construction! Loss of Lanes! Stopping at Intersections! (The last one is a valid argument)
Elevated LRT/HRT -- Construction! Loss of Privacy! Weather Delays! Costs So Much! (These aren't even that bad...)
At-Grade, Grade-Separated LRT/HRT -- Construction! Loss of Privacy! Weather Delays! Street Crossings!
Subway LRT/HRT -- Construction! Costs! Time!

People need to chill the **** out when it comes to building transit, especially NIMBYs that will complain over everything. We need new subway lines, we need elevated lines, we need grade separated GO lines, and we need new LRT and Streetcar lines. Not doing anything or spending millions in mitigation costs because poor Frank doesn't want to spend 5 extra minutes driving to work for 2 years is absolutely insane.

 

[steveintoronto]

This is a bit like measuring city populations. The arbitrary boundaries of municipalities don't really tell you about the population of the region and it takes some fiddly work to compare urban areas on equal terms. To get a good picture of spending efficiency for a transit agency you need to consider capital for non-expansion purposes in addition to operations.

Yeah...the claim of "Toronto is the fourth largest city in North America" is a classic example of that.
City Population
1 Mexico City 8,918,653
2 New York City 8,550,405
3 Los Angeles 3,971,883
4 Toronto 2,826,498
91 more rows
List of North American cities by population - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_North_American_cities_by_population