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2018 Ontario Provincial Election Discussion

Brown really does need to start hammering out his policy and getting in the media much more- again, people might still be pissed off at the Liberals, but they will vote for a general direction of government rather than for the details if they feel if the potential change of direction is too drastic.

Ontario survey shows rise in support for Liberals a year out from election

After months of weighty policy shifts by Premier Kathleen Wynne, Ontarians appear to be warming up to their unloved Liberal government, according to a new poll from the Innovative Research Group.

The long-governing Liberals have trailed the opposition Progressive Conservatives in a number of polls since last summer – but with less than a year before the next provincial election, the gap between has closed and they are almost tied in public support, according to advisor Greg Lyle; 30 per cent of Ontarians say they would vote PC compared with 27 per cent who would vote Liberal.

The poll follows a number of feel-good announcements in April and May in which Ms. Wynne announced a tax on foreign buyers to cool an overheated housing market, the move to a $15 minimum wage, a balanced budget with a new pharmacare plan, a basic-income pilot project and a 25-per-cent cut to hydro bills.

Former Liberal heavyweights have suggested in recent months that the party could be staring at defeat next summer if Ms. Wynne stays on as leader. However, while Ms. Wynne remains unpopular with the majority of Ontarians, Mr. Lyle says his polling shows paths for the Liberals to win again. By next summer, the Grits will have been in power for 15 years.

“What we’re seeing is that the pool of people open to the Liberals is starting to move,” Mr. Lyle told The Globe and Mail. “That doesn’t mean that they’ve got them, but they’ve got a lead in party identification and the number of people open to considering them is growing.”

Despite lagging in the polls, the Liberal brand remains the most popular in Ontario, with 34 per cent of those polled identifying as Liberals. The governing party’s base has also grown over the past few months, with 25 per cent of Ontarians disagreeing that its time to change government – nearly equal to the 27 per cent who say they are hostile with the government.

The Liberals are also in the lead across much of the Greater Toronto Area, after months of wobbly support in the party’s seat-rich heartland. The Tories lead everywhere else in Ontario, with commanding leads in southwestern and south-central Ontario.

Since November, the Liberals’ base support has grown, while the number of Ontarians mad at the government has shrunk. That’s good news for Ms. Wynne, according to Mr. Lyle – the pollster for former Tory premier Mike Harris.

Anger directed at Ms. Wynne has also dropped. While she ranks third when asked who would make the best premier, after PC Leader Patrick Brown and the NDP Leader Andrea Horwath, the number of people angry at the Premier has dropped five points to 41 per cent. Admittedly, that’s still quite unpopular, according to Mr. Lyle.

While the numbers are improving somewhat for Ms. Wynne, Mr. Lyle said he was surprised by the incremental increase. “What’s striking to me is that the policies were so dramatic and the gains have been relatively so small,” he said.

What may account for the discrepancy, Mr. Lyle said, is the government’s inability to form a narrative that has gained currency among Ontarians.
While the government’s announcements on housing and minimum wage have been well regarded, it hasn’t led to a more cohesive story. In an interview with The Globe in June, Ms. Wynne summed up that narrative in one word: “Fairness.”

And while Mr. Brown’s party might be ahead in the polls, more than half of Ontarians say they don’t know enough about him to form an opinion. That’s a problem also facing Ms. Horwath, as an increasing number of Ontarians have said they don’t know much about her, either.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new...als-a-year-out-from-election/article35550089/

Edit:

A bit late, IMO. The Conservatives need to be in the media full blast throughout the next year to get that policy into the public mind. As the US proves- spending your way to victory is not a guaranteed method of winning.

The clock is ticking toward Ontario's next election, and Patrick Brown is getting ready.

The Progressive Conservative leader said Thursday his party will hold a policy conference in November to ready its policy platform ahead of the June 7, 2018 vote.

It will include the PC pillars of economic development, and how to get Ontario back on track.

“(It will) make sure this is the easiest jurisdiction to welcome investment and create jobs,” Brown said, “that it is slightly more affordable to operate in the province of Ontario than it is in adjacent jurisdictions.”

Brown would not set a date when the Tory election platform will be made public, noting none of the other parties have one yet.
http://www.thebarrieexaminer.com/2017/06/22/brown-ready-for-june-2018-vote

This list might help get a general understanding of their potential platform (hint- lots of folks related to housing). Would also be interesting seeing who's donated to the Liberals & the NDP since CBC has gone to the liberty of only investigating the Conservatives.

Here's the list of the top donors to the Ontario PCs in 2016:

- Orlando Corp. $159,600

- Medipac $100,415

- LIUNA $74,070

- Canerector Inc & Hawkins Family $69,825

- Silver Hotel Group $59,185

- Insurance Bureau of Canada $43,460

- Mattamy Homes Ltd. $42,430

- Merit Open Shop Contractors Assoc. of Ontario $41,290

- Federation of Rental Housing Providers of Ontario $38,100

- Colonial House Capital Ltd. $33,500

- Valley Blades Ltd $32,500

- Interior Systems Contractors Assoc. of Ontario $31,775

Figures from Elections Ontario show the PCs vastly out-fundraised the governing Liberals and the third-place New Democrats in 2016:

- Ontario PC Party: $12,924,953

- Ontario Liberal Party: $6,309,082

- Ontario NDP: $3,718,010

This was a switch from 2015, when the Liberals raised $9.2 million, double the PCs' haul for the year. The PC Party collected its funds from 9,945 separate donations.

The banner year wiped out the PCs pre-existing debt of $6 million, leaving the party with a surplus of $2.1 million. The other two parties both remain in debt: the Liberals at $2 million in the red, and the NDP $3.2 million.

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/biggest-corporate-donors-ontario-pc-090000463.html
 
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So why does the Forum poll on June 16 show PC with 40%, Liberals at 24% and NDP at 23%?

Now 3 weeks later results change dramatically. We are to believe this poll?
 
So why does the Forum poll on June 16 show PC with 40%, Liberals at 24% and NDP at 23%?

Now 3 weeks later results change dramatically. We are to believe this poll?
Any single poll can't be accepted as being indicative in itself. It's the *trend* of poll results that is more telling, and a "trend" is defined (by most sources) as three or more results.

And a number of polls have indicated a change of "trend". If the trend continues, time is on Wynne's side...or to invert that, against Brown and Horwath. I'm no fan of Wynne, I'm even less of a fan of the alternatives, and that is a common characteristic being expressed by many.
 
Slow down the rush to $15 to allow businesses to adjust, and make it a variable minimum wage that depends on what part of Ontario you live in- the amount of money people make in Thunder Bay is less than in Toronto, but the cost of living is lower as well as the potential profits a company can earn. Hence- $15 is the Toronto standard, but not one that might be applicable elsewhere.

Ontario seeks public input on $15 minimum wage

Ontario’s bid to raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour – a move that is feared by businesses but has the support of some prominent economists – is being put to the public this week.
Businesses are strongly opposed to the increase, particularly the quick pace of it. A coalition of groups including the Ontario Chamber of Commerce, Restaurants Canada and the Canadian Franchise Association are sending Premier Kathleen Wynne a letter Monday, slamming the “arbitrary” increase.

“Many Ontario employers, especially small businesses, are now considering closing their business because they do not have the capacity to successfully manage such reforms,” they write.

“The business community was wholly aligned with your government’s previous approach, which allowed for increases to the minimum wage that were predictable and protected against arbitrary political decision-making.”

Business groups had been calling for the government to first perform an economic analysis, and have now commissioned their own, which the coalition said will be complete next month.

“To plan effectively and protect jobs, employers need predictability and time to adjust the cost of other inputs where we can,” the coalition writes. “There is no way to absorb and adjust to a 32 per cent hit in less than 18 months.”
Karl Wirtz, the CEO and founder of a packaging company in Brampton, Ont., said he may have to consider bankruptcy.

“This is something that has got me scared out of my mind,” he said.

The minimum wage increase will mean an extra $1-million for WG Pro-Manufacturing’s 200 – soon to be 245 – employees, Wirtz said. About half of them make minimum wage and the rest will have to get commensurate pay bumps, he said.

The company, which does co-packaging for foods and confectionery products, is focused on growth, Wirtz said, and as such is operating within tight margins. He hasn’t budgeted for an extra million dollars a year and is locked into contracts with big customers. The only way he sees out of the pricing structure is bankruptcy.


“I want all of our workers to have a good income and good ability to have a good lifestyle,” Wirtz said. “I respect that. Truthfully, I do. But you have to give businesses an opportunity to phase it into their program. So yes, let’s shoot for $14, let’s shoot for $15, but scale it over the next coming years.”

FYI for anyone who wants their opinion heard:
Ontario’s legislative committee will travel this week to Thunder Bay, North Bay, Ottawa, Kingston and Windsor, and next week to London, Kitchener, Niagara Falls, Hamilton and Toronto.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new...lic-input-on-15-minimum-wage/article35627670/

Of course, some more cynical opinions:
Very true. I have seen this first hand, having worked in government myself. The Minister had an agenda; the outcome/plan was already outlined to senior managers in the ministry. Public consultation sessions were held throughout the province at a significant cost. Everything from A-Z, soup to nuts, came up. While all of the commentary was dutifully and visibly recorded, there was no acknowledgement at the end of each session that there was no obvious consensus. The Communications folk then selectively cherry-picked all the quotes that supported the Minister's agenda and voila, "This is what the people said and we are proceeding accordingly".
When the Liberal government just 3 years ago formalized a new policy to tie annual increases in the minimum wage to the annual increases in inflation plus a fuller review every 5 years, Wynn praised it as a rational, effective approach to the issue. Even the business community was behind it because it gave them predictability for planning purposes.

But this was before Wynn plummeted in the polls to the lowest popularity ratings of any leader in Canada with an election looming in less than a year.


Any single poll can't be accepted as being indicative in itself. It's the *trend* of poll results that is more telling, and a "trend" is defined (by most sources) as three or more results.

And a number of polls have indicated a change of "trend". If the trend continues, time is on Wynne's side...or to invert that, against Brown and Horwath. I'm no fan of Wynne, I'm even less of a fan of the alternatives, and that is a common characteristic being expressed by many.

I think opinions will be crystalized once the Conservatives put out their platform- they're a big question mark at this point, and as always, people will be willing to overlook the finer details of implementation in exchange for a preferred direction of government.

If the Conservatives are willing to at least put out a fiscally/economically-focused, environmentally-acceptable platform, ignoring any push for social conservatism, the Liberals are going to be more in trouble. Otherwise, electorates will continue to hold their noses and vote Liberal.
 
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I think opinions will be crystalized once the Conservatives put out their platform- they're a big question mark at this point, and as always, people will be willing to overlook the finer details of implementation in exchange for a preferred direction of government.

If the Conservatives are willing to at least put out a fiscally/economically-focused, environmentally-acceptable platform, ignoring any push for social conservatism, the Liberals are going to be more in trouble. Otherwise, electorates will continue to hold their noses and vote Liberal.
Completely agreed. But one has to wonder: Why are Brown (especially) and Horwath missing in action?

Brown's approach appears to be to let Wynne hoist herself on her own shortcomings. It's not working. I'm showing my age, unabashedly, to lamenting the times when the OntCons were a *powerful, articulate, centrist and considerate* force in Ontario. ("The Blue Machine"). Like all dynasties, they eroded. The last thirty years have been a disaster for OntCons.

I leave it at that, as time alone can only tell if change happens. It's not looking good at this rate...
 
Completely agreed. But one has to wonder: Why are Brown (especially) and Horwath missing in action?

IMO, they (Brown and Horwath) need to start leaking 'hints' at what direction their platform is going in order to change the tone of the election and ensure that the election is fought over their platform rather than the Liberals'.

The Liberals have seen the writing on the wall and they are in campaign mode- hence the bevy of electoral promises that appear voter-friendly on the surface. Rather Machiavellian in my opinion, but they will do what needs to be done to win, no matter the cost.

No doubt there will probably be a some conflict between the SoCons and the more moderate groups over the Conservative platform- but whether or not these Social Conservatives can temper their appetite for explicit electoral policy is up in the air. The NDP should be going farther left- the Liberals have consumed their current centre-left position with these recent policy announcements.
 
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IMO, they (Brown and Horwath) need to start leaking 'hints' at what direction their platform is going in order to change the tone of the election and ensure that the election is fought over their platform rather than the Liberals.

The Liberals have seen the writing on the wall and they are in campaign mode- hence the bevy of electoral promises that appear voter-friendly on the surface. Rather Machiavellian in my opinion, but they will do what needs to be done to win, no matter the cost.

No doubt there will probably be a some conflict between the SoCons and the more moderate groups over the Conservative platform- but whether or not these Social Conservatives can temper their appetite for explicit electoral policy is up in the air. The NDP should be going farther left- the Liberals have consumed their current centre-left position with these recent policy announcements.
  • Due to their history, the Liberals try to claim to occupy the centre-left, although they are actually straight left just like the NDP.
  • If the NDP tries to go centre-left (as Mulcair and Horwath did in last election), they will not be believed since they are campaigning right of the Liberals, and they lose some of their historic, hard-core extreme and vocal left supporters.
  • If the NDP tries to go left of the Liberals, they are viewed as extreme left and would only retain their 15% core support.

I would think that the NDP would have to run in the same left wing space that the Liberals occupy, and trust that the Liberal arrogance, dishonesty, and corruption will move centre-left voters to them.
 
The problem with occupying the same space as the Liberals is that it'll probably depend on the Conservative's platform- if the conservatives go hard Social Conservative/Neo Con, the full-on ABC vote will be out and will work against the NDP.

If the Conservatives have a more moderate platform, that ABC vote will ease up somewhat, and only then will people begin to discern between the Liberal and NDP platforms based on corruption and dishonesty.

This method also probably requires a fairly charismatic leader to outshine the inherent incumbency benefits that the Liberals have (read Jack Layton and the Federal NDP).

Make no mistake- the Liberals likely don't care which political spectrum they're on- they can go from fairly neoconservative (privatizing Hydro) to full-on liberal (raising minimum wage). All that matters is that by the end of 2018, they're still in Queen's Park.
 
The problem with occupying the same space as the Liberals is that it'll probably depend on the Conservative's platform- if the conservatives go hard Social Conservative/Neo Con, the full-on ABC vote will be out and will work against the NDP.

If the Conservatives have a more moderate platform, that ABC vote will ease up somewhat, and only then will people begin to discern between the Liberal and NDP platforms based on corruption and dishonesty.

This method also probably requires a fairly charismatic leader to outshine the inherent incumbency benefits that the Liberals have (read Jack Layton and the Federal NDP).

Make no mistake- the Liberals likely don't care which political spectrum they're on- they can go from fairly neoconservative (privatizing Hydro) to full-on liberal (raising minimum wage). All that matters is that by the end of 2018, they're still in Queen's Park.

Well said. These Liberals play the full spectrum and I wouldn't box them far left They just pander well to those voters and take advantage of a weak NDP group which shows up without a clear message and that's with a fairly "likeable" leader in Horwath. I dont see much hope for the NDP for this decade as they just seem to exist and the Liberals are not going to go out the door without an assault of promises to pander to as many voters as possible. The NDP blew their opportunity to attack when Hudak was the leader of the Cons.
 
Depends on what kind of supporters are dropping out- are they the main body of the conservatives, or are they the fringe elements of the Conservatives that Brown might be trying to sideline?

The article is rather scant on contextural details at the moment.


I.e. one article here regarding a candidate nomination in Scarborough:

Interesting that the traditional PC candidates were sidelined for one that was seen to have more potential among ethnic (here, Tamil) voters.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...gressive-conservative-pc-nomination-1.4203328
 
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Depends on what kind of supporters are dropping out- are they the main body of the conservatives, or are they the fringe elements of the Conservatives that Brown might be trying to sideline?

Interesting that the traditional PC candidates were sidelined for one that was seen to have more potential among ethnic (here, Tamil) voters.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...gressive-conservative-pc-nomination-1.4203328
Good 'heads up'. I wondered whether earlier rumblings would continue? They're not rumblings any longer, but actual eruptions. This is characteristic of any group the trends towards the extremes. To address jj's point, being centrist trends towards immunity from including diversity. The PC's are more than diverse, they're *disparate*.

Again, it's far too easy to bring in retrospect, but the Tories started losing it when they left centre over a generation ago. The Libs are left at centre, even with their non-altruistic pandering to whatever they think will get them votes.

In retrospect for the Libs, they would have done far better being *altruistically* at centre, albeit time will tell.
 
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Inside baseball.

DoFo had previously said many times the Provincial Cons needed an enema. This internal angst is just the beginning of the flushing process. The members who are not willing to work with Brown are the ones keeping the party from being taken seriously. They are the exact ones who are no longer wanted. Extreme leaning political figures have a hard time working with moderates and the general voter has no use for extreme views these days. Its not like the party didn't see this coming after last election.

The more the public warms up to Brown, the more existing members will fall in line, the extreme ones will be shaken out and the opposing media will tap into these few angry far right wing bums to make it seem like a bigger issue. Should be a hard fought election, which is good for Toronto.
 
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DoFo had previously said many times the Provincial Cons needed an enema. This internal angst is just the beginning of the flushing process. The members who are not willing to work with Brown are the ones keeping the party from being taken seriously. They are the exact ones who are no longer wanted. Extreme leaning political figures have a hard time working with moderates and the general voter has no use for extreme views these days. Its not like the party didn't see this coming after last election.

The more the public warms up to Brown, the more existing members will fall in line, the extreme ones will be shaken out and the opposing media will tap into these few angry far right wing bums to make it seem like a bigger issue. Should be a hard fought election, which is good for Toronto.

Interesting point- as awful as Ford was, he did have a significant amount of support among the working class and minorities. The PCs will need to face (or are grappling with)this changing reality- letting the SoCons from Eastern Ontario drive will only net them a spot in the opposition benches.

Another interesting notion- if the PCs perceive themselves as being competitive but weaker in Toronto- would it cause them to promote some Toronto-friendly proposals? Of course- it depends where their support in Toronto lies (probably the 416-suburbs).

If the PCs are too weak in Toronto I could see them cutting their losses and focusing on the 905.
 

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