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2018 Ontario Provincial Election Discussion

You guys remind of Alex Jones talking about the gay frogs...

All parties are trying to opportunistically position themselves to gain here. I have little respect Political parties staged theatrics these days and little trust they wouldn't stoop to the lowest level possible to win an election with the amount of money at play. Media outlets are tied to political parties and on limited budgets so its reasonable to be skeptical and question things a bit further before just accepting at face value.

Sadly while there does seem to be smoke here with Patrick Brown it also illustrates is how powerful of a Political tool these type of allegations can be in future. We can certainly expect some false allegations in the future.
 
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Even if the allegations aren't true the guy hangs out at douchey bars and hits on young girls. Is that the kind of person you want running the province?

Apparently 2 local girls have come out to corroborate the story. You can believe the story if you want.

I really have a hard time believing any conspiracy theories on this.
 
I'm not implicating anyone. I'm only going by what I've read here and it's all looking crass af.

I'm not a Liberal, Conservative, or an New Democrat and have never voted for any of the three in any election so I don't really care about political implications resulting from this insofar as my personal politics are involved.

I was only being half serious. Hard to tell online. I held my nose and voted Liberal in 2014. Not sure what I want to do now.

Between Andrea Horwath, Howard Hampton, and Bob Rae I feel as though Horwath is the saint between the 3 of them and she doesn't seem to be lying through her teeth. Hampton was never a trustworthy leader at least through my eyes.

In the best of all worlds, i'd rather have a Liberal party or government led by Horwath, than one led by Wynne. Essentially, anyone asides from Wynne, Del Duca and Hoskins would be a much better leader for the Liberals. We have a situation here where Wynne will essentially win the election by default unless Horwath can mount a fierce campaign.

Never been much of an NDP fan, but I have nothing against her.

All parties are trying to opportunistically position themselves to gain here. I have little respect for any Political parties and their staged theatrics these days and zero trust they wont stoop to the lowest level possible to win an election with the amount of money at play.

Sadly while there does seem to be smoke here it also illustrates is how powerful of a Political tool these type of allegations can be in future. We can certainly expect some false allegations in the future.

Very much agreed. I wouldn't put it past the Liberals to make attack ads out of this.
 
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I worked with Horvath a long time ago. While I liked her personally, I’m not convinced she has what it takes to be premier. I also well remember the Rae years.
 
Even if the allegations aren't true the guy hangs out at douchey bars and hits on young girls. Is that the kind of person you want running the province?

Apparently 2 local girls have come out to corroborate the story. You can believe the story if you want.

I really have a hard time believing any conspiracy theories on this.


I also think its true because he seems to have a history of the bar/club scene from what I've read. But who knows, I could be wrong just seems to line up well with the accusations?

But the precedence is VERY scary as its a lot of hearsay between people that were also drunk and somewhat irresponsible. Doesn't excuse the actions of PB in any way whatsoever (if true). The bigger issue is its not hard to fabricate these types of accusations, or pay people to stretch the truth and the damage to ones Political image in the social media age is massive.
 
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Somehow I don't see how anyone can turn this into a campaign issue overtly without it backfiring badly. If you listen to what's being said so far, everyone is remarkably restrained in that regards, for obvious reasons. I suspect all you are going to get is "our party has always been clear about"...yadda yadda yadda.

AoD
 
Even if the allegations aren't true the guy hangs out at douchey bars and hits on young girls. Is that the kind of person you want running the province?

Apparently 2 local girls have come out to corroborate the story. You can believe the story if you want.
Apparently? What evidence do you have to suggest this assertion is apparent? This is where the rumours spin, where anyone can say anything without any supporting info.
 
I'd like to see a comparison graphed out. Maybe for UT, at the time. But don't think PB holds a torch to the RoFo at its peak situation. That was practically global, even with celebrities weighing in.
Saw this poll released this morning. Haven't studied it enough, but I think it is entirely based on polling after Brown resignation.

No effect on PC support - still 42% (down from 43%, which is well within margin or error).
Christine Elliot is top choice to replace Brown - although no runaway leaders in the poll

http://poll.forumresearch.com/data/0c736f26-c8a2-4a65-83d6-889a2ee3c1afBrown Jan 25.pdf
 
The big benefit for the Tories is Wynne unpopularity with most voters in Ontario.

The issue was Brown was not that very likeable and I think the liberals designed the election to fight against Brown and if the Tories pick a female, then the campaign strategy goes out the window.

I would argue things are in great flux right now
 
I gave a lot of disparate views a thumbs up, not because I necessarily agree with the expressed view, but because they're well thought out and substantiated...and in many cases original.

I relate to the cynicism of many in not accepting pat answers. I was adding many to quote, until realizing there's far too many worthy of comment, so I have to make this point by subtracting all points quoted save this:
Somehow I don't see how anyone can turn this into a campaign issue overtly without it backfiring badly. If you listen to what's being said so far, everyone is remarkably restrained in that regards, for obvious reasons.
A "campaign issue" per-se? No. But not one quarter has stated "even though these allegations are unsubstantiated at this time, and Patrick Brown will be guaranteed due process of law"...to the point that the omission of stating that is tantamount to accusing him themselves!

Can you imagine a marathon athletic race where one of the contestants is shot, even if he/she 'deserved it' by being a reputed criminal, and the other contestants not making a point of how he/she deserves due attention, *in spite of his peccadilloes*? Make no mistake, I found Brown to be reprehensible in many respects, but the "J'Accuse" movement has become hysterical, when in the clamour for 'justice', people are so willing to forget that the accused also has rights under our system.

And Wynne's statement was absolutely meticulous in not mentioning even the slightest appreciation of the need for the legal rights of the accused. She was far from being alone.

Even mass murderers are accorded their rights when conducted in the courts of our Western nations. The allegations may very well be proven correct, but until that time...and until *the accusers are identified within the legal dictates we now have*, we're witnesses to mass hysteria. The Law does provide anonymity and protection through certain channels and processes. The mass media doesn't. Welcome to the Star Chamber.

Addendum: Here's an example of the dangers of playing this for gain, and this will surely backfire:
NDP Leader Andrea Horwath said any New Democrat facing similar allegations would not serve under her. "If he was in my caucus, he wouldn't be sitting as an MPP any longer," she said. "This is about women coming forward and calling out behaviour that they experienced and I have to say I was pretty disgusted by what I heard in terms of their story."
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new...exual-misconduct-allegations/article37731210/

All she had to do was include the necessary statement: "If these allegations are proven to be true" to her rant.

And it's not just Horwath, by any means. Justin made a statement, albeit more couched and carefully constructed, but still omitting the essential point that these are, as yet, "unproven allegations".

By not according the right of presumed innocence, these very same leaders are setting themselves up to be knocked down by the same device.
 
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A "campaign issue" per-se? No. But not one quarter has stated "even though these allegations are unsubstantiated at this time, and Patrick Brown will be guaranteed due process of law"...to the point that the omission of stating that is tantamount to accusing him themselves!

Can you imagine a marathon athletic race where one of the contestants is shot, even if he/she 'deserved it' by being a reputed criminal, and the other contestants not making a point of how he/she deserves due attention, *in spite of his peccadilloes*? Make no mistake, I found Brown to be reprehensible in many respects, but the "J'Accuse" movement has become hysterical, when in the clamour for 'justice', people are so willing to forget that the accused also has rights under our system.

And Wynne's statement was absolutely meticulous in not mentioning even the slightest appreciation of the need for the legal rights of the accused. She was far from being alone.

Even mass murderers are accorded their rights when conducted in the courts of our Western nations. The allegations may very well be proven correct, but until that time...and until *the accusers are identified within the legal dictates we now have*, we're witnesses to mass hysteria. The Law does provide anonymity and protection through certain channels and processes. The mass media doesn't. Welcome to the Star Chamber.

Live by the court of public opinion sword, die by the public opinion sword when one is basically running for a job that is driven by optics - Martin Regg Cohn had it right:

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/sta...-and-died-by-the-court-of-public-opinion.html

Besides, no one sane would want a cloud of potential sexual impropriety of the highest order hanging over the head of someone who might be premier (I mean just what kind of damage to the party itself if - oops, he won, but have to spend the next 5 years under investigation - and lord forbid, get dragged into court and came out losing?)

Also the lack of fortitude and forthrightness is just as damaging as the accusation itself. Think of Wednesday night as a test - the subject arguably failed it by doing the cut and run. You don't get second chances from a fall like that (and stupidly invited the media to document your cut and run *right at the same time when the expose was on TV*).

AoD
 
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Live by the court of public opinion sword, die by the public opinion sword when one is basically running for a job that is driven by optics - Martin Regg Cohn had it right:

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/sta...-and-died-by-the-court-of-public-opinion.html

Besides, no one sane would want a cloud of potential sexual impropriety of the highest order hanging over the head of someone who might be premier (I mean just what kind of damage to the party itself if - oops, he won, but have to spend the next 5 years under investigation - and lord forbid, get dragged into court and came out losing?)

Also the lack of fortitude and forthrightness is just as damaging as the accusation itself. Think of Wednesday night as a test - the subject arguably failed it by doing the cut and run. You don't get second chances from a fall like that (and stupidly invited the media to document your cut and run *right at the same time when the expose was on TV*).

AoD
You miss the essential point. The Public always will react subjectively, so be it, were it ever so. I'm talking about the ostensible *leaders* of this nation, of this society, who have a responsibility when talking *legal* issues to include the necessities of process in doing so.

You exactly make my point. This is trial by media from anonymous sources.
 
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Seems that some in the highest level of PC party knew about Brown issues since last year...

https://www.cp24.com/news/tory-mpp-...with-campaign-officials-in-december-1.3776722

PC MPP Lisa MacLeod made the comment to reporters ahead of a caucus meeting to appoint a new interim leader on Friday morning.

She said that she heard “similar things” about Brown and shared that information with members of his campaign team in December. MacLeod, however, said that the officials told her that the information was “unfounded.”
Excellent 'heads up'. As a number of posters earlier have opined, this has been 'played', and it continues to be 'played' by persons who knew exactly how the reactionary masses would be stampeded.
She said that she heard “similar things” about Brown and shared that information with members of his campaign team in December. MacLeod, however, said that the officials told her that the information was “unfounded.”

“I am not a police officer, I am not a private investigator but certainly when I heard issues about women I would bring those forward,” she said. “People would tell me things so I would float it up the flag pole.”

MacLeod said that she would prefer to keep the specific nature of the information she shared with campaign officials “confidential.”
She might have to 'confide' that to others now she's brought it into the sunlight.

There's going to be a lot more unravelling of this story in the next few weeks, not so much the veracity of the allegations themselves, but how this is a 'put up job' politically.
 

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