2014 Municipal Election: Toronto Transit Plans

[EnviroTO]

Where did Tory say that this would not require DRL? They explicitly said once every 15 minutes.

And how could it relieve Bloor-Yonge station much? It doesn't intercept the Danforth line until Kennedy? Most people board the Danforth line west of Kennedy.

I agree that it wouldn't relieve it much but in every discussion about SmartTracks he de-prioritized the DRL.

Globe and Mail: "Mr. Tory criticized conventional plans for a tunnelled downtown relief line, which is usually envisioned as a U-shaped local subway line into the core that intersects the Bloor-Danforth line to the east and west of Yonge. That plan has serious problems, he said, arguing it would take too long, disrupt neighbourhoods and “do nothing†to extend transit into the suburbs and ease congestion by getting people out of their vehicles."

There was already a plan for RER by the province so what is the SmartTracks plan other than to say it will involve the TTC and will de-prioritize the DRL?

 

[nfitz]

I agree that it wouldn't relieve it much but in every discussion about SmartTracks he de-prioritized the DRL.

Globe and Mail: "Mr. Tory criticized conventional plans for a tunnelled downtown relief line, which is usually envisioned as a U-shaped local subway line into the core that intersects the Bloor-Danforth line to the east and west of Yonge. That plan has serious problems, he said, arguing it would take too long, disrupt neighbourhoods and “do nothing” to extend transit into the suburbs and ease congestion by getting people out of their vehicles."

There was already a plan for RER by the province so what is the SmartTracks plan other than to say it will involve the TTC and will de-prioritize the DRL?

He certainly pushed prioritization of the RER and deprioritization of the DRL, wanting the RER delivered in 7 years, while we know that less than 10 years for the DRL is very unlikely.

That's very different from not having DRL. Quite clearly we need both. Tory wants the RER first. Personally I think we should be pushing both hard now.

 

[innsertnamehere]

In the end the prioritization of the DRL will be decided by the Metrolinx yonge relief study going on right now. Its going to take into account GO RER relief unlike current prioritization studies.

GO RER will provide a small bit of relief that may push the need for the DRL back a few years to the mid-late 2020's, but construction is going to need to start by the end of the decade essentially no matter what, and it will be needed before the Yonge extension RER or no RER.

 

[ssiguy2]

Let's get our definition right.

What is Smart Tracks? Smart Tracks is NOT a subway/Metro and not because it's not underground or even because frequencies are lower but because it is not grade separated. Smart Tracks is called all kinds of different things,,,,,,,,,,RER, S-Bahn, CityRail, but they are just different names of the same system............suburban rail.

Suburban rail system throughout the world have many things in common. They usually use, at least in part, existing rail corridors, they are not 100% grade separated but often have large sections that are and are always separated from freight traffic. They usually have lower frequencies than regular subway lines, use EMU or {rarely} DMU vehicles, in more elaborate systems several lines {5 lines on one corridor is quite common} share one corridor which in the case of Metros/subways is EXTREMELY rare for any corridor to share more than 2 subway routes, they usually end at one or 2 particular destinations like a major rail station {ie Union}, are primarily used for people going downtown, and are used as more rapid downtown alternatives than the standard transit services due to having significantly fewer stops as stations are rarely {except in the core} less than one km a part.

There are variations of course but I think that is a overall good definition of suburban rail.

Now, let's say the TTC takes over the UPX but runs it exactly the same way except the fares are standard TTC fares, can someone please explain to me what the difference between Smart Tracks/suburban rail is and the current UPX.

 

[innsertnamehere]

higher capacity that can deal with demand when it has regular fare levels.

UPX wouldn't be able to handle demand if it ran with GO level fares, the UPX will barely be able to handle demand with the high fares, yet alone the low ones.

TTC also probably wouldn't want to get into dealing with mainline track operations, GO would be much better suited for that.

 

[salsa]

In the end the prioritization of the DRL will be decided by the Metrolinx yonge relief study going on right now. Its going to take into account GO RER relief unlike current prioritization studies.

When will the result of this study be revealed?

 

[innsertnamehere]

spring 2015 is when the Metrolinx justification study is supposed to be completed, and late 2015 or early 2016 for the completion of the DRL preferred alignment study being done by the city of Toronto right now, which is considered early design work. the next round of public consultation should occur sometime this month.

 

[RogerB]

Innsertnamehere says
"In the end the prioritization of the DRL will be decided by the Metrolinx yonge relief study going on right now."
The Province is currently requesting that cities (Hamilton, Mississauga) contribute one third funding for their transit priorities. Toronto's continued insistence on steering its money (many billions) to suburban tunnels Sheppard subway and now the Richview surface (underground) GO line, effectively makes the DRL something that will not move beyond studies based on the current city and Provincial policy, assuming City
Council officially endorses SmartTrack. Further Tory says he wants SmartTrack & the Scarborough subway implemented before non priorities like LRT or DRL, effectively placing them on ice.
Ssiguy
"What is Smart Tracks?"
SmartTrack can be thought of as the difference between RER and Tory campaign modification called SmartTrack.
The major difference is the new alignment from Mount Dennis to the Airport Corporate Centre at Eglinton & the 401. Take it away, and the need for Toronto financing disappears, and ST becomes just a request by a municipal leader to prioritize and rebrand the Provincial GO expansion, (RER), around part of a single GO line, build it (somehow) in 7 years, offer TTC fares on this section, and choose station locations.
Tory plans to choose powerful executive committee members based on their willingness to back the unstudied, unfunded campaign plan, that meddles with RER and delays studied priorities. Essentially these Councillors get power in exchange for ignoring fiscal efficiency and transit riders.
The funding strategy is risky and won't cover the $3 billion city money (Tory says is) needed. The Fed portion $3 billion is unlikely, and the campaign team relied on google images and so didn't include an extra $2 billion for tunnelling. Essentially, unless Tory's plan is gutted, the city will be pouring a huge amount of money into a subway that runs optimistically 4x an hour, with one stop in Etobicoke and one downtown at Union Station.
The DRL adds new capacity where it is needed, while this much more expensive proposal, adds new capacity only in Etobicoke, while sharing existing GO capacity (Lakeshore corridor, Union Station) that RER plans will soon max out.

 

[rbt]

That's very different from not having DRL. Quite clearly we need both. Tory wants the RER first. Personally I think we should be pushing both hard now.

Yes, both DRL and RER need to move forward as a decent pace.

The question is will Tory pull or defer funding/staff from the DRL EA (only thing that will be completed in his first term) in order to move forward with his SmartTrack thing? If not, then that's excellent news. If I have to pick one or the other (knowing the province is doing RER and SmartTrack is probably just an integration piece) then I choose the DRL as a TTC priority.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Time to put away your napkin dispensers until the next election, whichever one it will be.

 

[nfitz]

What is Smart Tracks? Smart Tracks is NOT a subway/Metro and not because it's not underground or even because frequencies are lower but because it is not grade separated.

How do we know it's not grade separated? Most of the surface crossing from Mount Dennis to Union have been eliminated in the last few years, along with at least 1 between Union and Unionville. Surely at the rate they've been eliminating them, they could all be gone in 10 years.

Are there any level crossings left on the UPX line? If there aren't, I wouldn't call that either subway or metro!

 

[innsertnamehere]

no, Georgetown south is now completely grade seperated. 2 at grade crossings and 1 rail to rail crossing has been eliminated on the Stouffville line in the last decade, with most crossings on the corridor already past the threshold traditionally used to justify upgrades. there are however 8 at grade crossings remaining south of Unionville.

 

[Rainforest]

The major difference is the new alignment from Mount Dennis to the Airport Corporate Centre at Eglinton & the 401. Take it away, and the need for Toronto financing disappears, and ST becomes just a request by a municipal leader to prioritize and rebrand the Provincial GO expansion, (RER), around part of a single GO line, build it (somehow) in 7 years, offer TTC fares on this section, and choose station locations.

TTC fares will automatically bring a much higher demand. That will mandate multiple upgrades along the route (extra tracks, signalling, platform size and length), and quite likely, a train tunnel through downtown.

Therefore, extra funding from Toronto will be needed, even in the absence of the new alignment west of Mount Dennis.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Again, people are putting things into SmartTrack that aren't there. It's not supposed to provide subway-like service - it's only once every 15 minutes. This can only be done with 12-car double-decker trains. It's more like an RER or GO train than a TTC subway.

At least once every 15 minutes is what GO RER and I believe SmartTrack calls for.

It was sold as a way to not require the DRL. Any study will shoot down quickly any notion that SmartTracks could releive the Yonge line as a train every 15 minutes.

The Downtown Rapid Transit Expansion Study already shot down the Lakeshore RT East proposal, who's alignment was similar to that of SmartTrack. It's expected to cause significantly increased crowding on 1 Yonge Line, south of Line 2.

....

Please use the quote feature (speech bubble icon) when quoting other members. It's easier for us to read your post if you do.

 

[gweed123]

At least once every 15 minutes is what GO RER and I believe SmartTrack calls for.

Yes, those 2 extra words in front are very important. Much like "up to" 50% off. Makes a big difference in the end.

The Downtown Rapid Transit Expansion Study already shot down the Lakeshore RT East proposal, who's alignment was similar to that of SmartTrack. It's expected to cause significantly increased crowding on 1 Yonge Line, south of Line 2.

I don't see how building an alternative route can possibly increase crowding on the Yonge line. "Not halt the increase", sure, but "cause"? I doubt that. The scheme that's going to increase crowding on the Yonge line most is the North Yonge extension. Any alternative route for downtown-bound Bloor-Danforth passengers that bypasses Bloor-Yonge is going to decrease Yonge crowding compared to that alternative not being there. The question is just by how much.

Now having said that, I do agree that the Lakeshore East RT proposal by itself is far from the optimal way of relieving the Yonge line.