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2014 Municipal Election: Toronto Mayoral Race

Let's start with disagreeing with Smart Track completely. Are we to discount the critical pieces he's written about Smart Track or the endorsement of Chow? And I think it's quite obvious that he would much prefer the LRTs or the DRL before movement on suburban rail. Give him a choice, money for DRL or money for suburban rail. We know which one he'd pick. Unfortunately, that does not jive with Tory or I suspect, the province's vision.

I have no doubt in my mind that the Wynne Liberals secretly are relieved about a Tory victory. The RER plan can win them votes in the 905. The DRL? Not so much. $6 billion goes a lot of further, when spent on suburban rail....at least when it comes to elections.

I don't understand why you keep portraying Steve Munro as being against suburban rail. He's always been totally for GO RER, which is express suburban rail.

He's against certain aspects of the SmartTrack idea yes, but that doesn't mean he's against suburban rail.
 
I have no doubt in my mind that the Wynne Liberals secretly are relieved about a Tory victory. The RER plan can win them votes in the 905. The DRL? Not so much. $6 billion goes a lot of further, when spent on suburban rail....at least when it comes to elections.
Not secretly actually. She exclaimed "Hallelujah!" when she heard that Tory won. :p

Wynne was also on-board with the Scarborough subway, something that Chow wanted killed.
Duguid also said that Tory's election means that the Scarborough subway will get built.
 
I don't understand why you keep portraying Steve Munro as being against suburban rail. He's always been totally for GO RER, which is express suburban rail.

He's against certain aspects of the SmartTrack idea yes, but that doesn't mean he's against suburban rail.

What kEiThZ is trying to say is that Munro has been against using suburban rail to serve Scarborough and Etobicoke, which for the most part is true and consistent with his blogposts.

We've covered this topic excessively before the election. Some people including Munro and Chow believe that LRTs are enough for the inner-city suburbs, others like the Fordites and Scarborough councillors believe that they need subways there, and others yet like Tory believe that suburban rail is the best way to serve the inner-city suburbs.

My personal opinion is that in the inner-city suburbs we need both suburban rail (with fare integration) for rapid commutes to the downtown core, and LRTs for local travel to replace our overloaded bus routes.
 
What kEiThZ is trying to say is that Munro has been against using suburban rail to serve Scarborough and Etobicoke, which for the most part is true and consistent with his blogposts.

We've covered this topic excessively before the election. Some people including Munro and Chow believe that LRTs are enough for the inner-city suburbs, others like the Fordites and Scarborough councillors believe that they need subways there, and others yet like Tory believe that suburban rail is the best way to serve the inner-city suburbs.

My personal opinion is that in the inner-city suburbs we need both suburban rail (with fare integration) for rapid commutes to the downtown core, and LRTs for local travel to replace our overloaded bus routes.

Whaaa?!?!? Say whaaaaat???

I read Munro's blog and he's never said he's against suburban rail to Etobicoke and Scarborough. Quite the opposite, he has always supported GO RER to Stouffville to serve Scarborough and Georgetown line for Etobicoke.

Yes he supports the LRTs as well, but that obviously doesn't mean you're against suburban rail. Show one example where he said he's against GO RER or suburban rail.

He's against certain parts of SmartTrack yes, but is totally supportive of GO RER from what I've read..

Very confused here, I'm pretty sure I've read all his posts and much of the comment threads on his blog.
 
We've covered this topic excessively before the election. Some people including Munro and Chow believe that LRTs are enough for the inner-city suburbs ...
Odd though that we have covered this topic excessively, and yet you misrepresent both Munro and Chow's position so poorly.

Munro has advocated subway in inner-city suburbs, including north on Yonge past Finch, and extending the downtown relief line north of Bloor, into Thorncliffe and Flemingdon Park.

The area that LRTs are advocated are based on ridership, not location. Even a right-winger like Tory didn't advocate subways on Finch West or Sheppard East.
 
Odd though that we have covered this topic excessively, and yet you misrepresent both Munro and Chow's position so poorly.

Munro has advocated subway in inner-city suburbs, including north on Yonge past Finch, and extending the downtown relief line north of Bloor, into Thorncliffe and Flemingdon Park.

The area that LRTs are advocated are based on ridership, not location. Even a right-winger like Tory didn't advocate subways on Finch West or Sheppard East.

I clearly meant Sheppard/Finch/Scarborough subways, not logical Yonge extensions and the DRL (whose route I wouldn't call inner-city suburbia).

We don't need to politicize transit technologies, we've had enough of that over the election and past 4 years as is. Subways/LRTs/suburban rails don't need to be "left" or "right".


Whaaa?!?!? Say whaaaaat???

I read Munro's blog and he's never said he's against suburban rail to Etobicoke and Scarborough. Quite the opposite, he has always supported GO RER to Stouffville to serve Scarborough and Georgetown line for Etobicoke.

Yes he supports the LRTs as well, but that obviously doesn't mean you're against suburban rail. Show one example where he said he's against GO RER or suburban rail.

He's against certain parts of SmartTrack yes, but is totally supportive of GO RER from what I've read..

Very confused here, I'm pretty sure I've read all his posts and much of the comment threads on his blog.

He's very much for GO RER of course, never said otherwise. The problem however is that GO RER with it's high priced fare and few 416 stations doesn't serve Scarborough or Etobicoke, let alone ancillary areas like Liberty Village (who apparently never even heard of GO given that source-funded bus) as well as it could. This is what the SmartTrack idea tries to overcome/expedite. It's a change of mentality of having GO RER serve the 416 as well as the 905, to have our suburban rails be regional subways as opposed to merely 905 commuter rails. It is something Munro conceptualizes about often enough yet is too stubborn to support when a (albeit flawed) plan doing so is proposed.

(I sense though that his opposition to it is because of it being perceived at the expense of the DRL)
 
I clearly meant Sheppard/Finch/Scarborough subways, not logical Yonge extensions and the DRL (whose route I wouldn't call inner-city suburbia).

We don't need to politicize transit technologies, we've had enough of that over the election and past 4 years as is. Subways/LRTs/suburban rails don't need to be "left" or "right".




He's very much for GO RER of course, never said otherwise. The problem however is that GO RER with it's high priced fare and few 416 stations doesn't serve Scarborough or Etobicoke, let alone ancillary areas like Liberty Village (who apparently never even heard of GO given that source-funded bus) as well as it could. This is what the SmartTrack idea tries to overcome/expedite. It's a change of mentality of having GO RER serve the 416 as well as the 905, to have our suburban rails be regional subways as opposed to merely 905 commuter rails. It is something Munro conceptualizes about often enough yet is too stubborn to support when a (albeit flawed) plan doing so is proposed.

(I sense though that his opposition to it is because of it being perceived at the expense of the DRL)

You said this:
What kEiThZ is trying to say is that Munro has been against using suburban rail to serve Scarborough and Etobicoke, which for the most part is true and consistent with his blogposts.

Yet GO RER is suburban rail to serve Scarborough to Etobicoke, and we both agree that Munro has always supported GO RER.

Am I missing something or is that a huge contradiction?

My point was that Munro does support suburban rail to Scarborough and Etobicoke, since he supports GO RER, which is... suburban rail to Scarborough and Etobicoke.
 
Apologies, poor choice of wording.

Yes, GO RER has stops in Scarborough and Etobicoke, but the point stands that it is primarily a 905 commuter rail, as evident by the fact that people in the 416 (like at Liberty Village) aren't even aware of its existence.
 
Final Percentage Results - Toronto Election October 27,2014


Salsa and Everyone: I was looking for the final results of Monday's Toronto Election and this fits the bill...

It is interesting to me how Tory won a geographical area roughly the shape of a upside down "T"; DF winning the "Outer
Boroughs" to the W and E and Chow winning only wards in the West End of the former City of Toronto...

There was mention of Toronto's Election on local NYC news on the night of 10/27 and the morning of 10/28 so
publicity in at least the New York City area was definitely there...

This Election was closer then predicted and the noted split vote did not deny Tory becoming Toronto's next Mayor...
I wish him well and I hope that he is the "uniter" that Toronto needs following the Ford fiasco...

LI MIKE
 
What kEiThZ is trying to say is that Munro has been against using suburban rail to serve Scarborough and Etobicoke, which for the most part is true and consistent with his blogposts.

No, it isn't. This is a complete misrepresentative and I suggest you actually cite some examples of such opposition. Numerous times he's mentioned that the province and Metrolinx have not been serious about either fare integration or making use of GO for inter-416 travel. Multiple times! Over years! Suggesting that Munro opposes GO RER much less suburban rail is completely spurious and demands challenge.

We've covered this topic excessively before the election. Some people including Munro and Chow believe that LRTs are enough for the inner-city suburbs, others like the Fordites and Scarborough councillors believe that they need subways there, and others yet like Tory believe that suburban rail is the best way to serve the inner-city suburbs.

My personal opinion is that in the inner-city suburbs we need both suburban rail (with fare integration) for rapid commutes to the downtown core, and LRTs for local travel to replace our overloaded bus routes.

Munro expends considerable time in delving into transit plans in the type of detail not seen by any "amateur" transit watcher.

He's very much for GO RER of course, never said otherwise. The problem however is that GO RER with it's high priced fare and few 416 stations doesn't serve Scarborough or Etobicoke, let alone ancillary areas like Liberty Village (who apparently never even heard of GO given that source-funded bus) as well as it could. This is what the SmartTrack idea tries to overcome/expedite. It's a change of mentality of having GO RER serve the 416 as well as the 905, to have our suburban rails be regional subways as opposed to merely 905 commuter rails. It is something Munro conceptualizes about often enough yet is too stubborn to support when a (albeit flawed) plan doing so is proposed.

(I sense though that his opposition to it is because of it being perceived at the expense of the DRL)

GO RER was *already* proposed by the province well before Tory came up with SmartTrack, with its questionable capacity promises and funding, bizarre location of multiple stations directly parallel to the BD extension, and the unworkable Eglinton West branch. And Liberty Village is rather close to the Exhibition GO Station. I'm not clear why we need this SmartTrack scheme to provide service there when it's not even envisaged to run on the Lakeshore West line.

Of course, Munro has been talking about this for years. His comments in September:

RER is probably the best idea Queen’s Park has had in its long history of bungled transit files. For once, we have a proposal whose primary goal is to improve service, not to underwrite some hare-brained economic development strategy or pump money into a specific manufacturer’s product.

Alas, this could all be undone if an over-eager, influential cabinet minister starts gerrymandering plans and priorities to suit an election campaign. That could be a greater disaster than recent provincial meddling in Toronto’s rapid transit plans.

The regional context is particularly important because this is not just a few nodes – Union Station, Hamilton, Brampton, Barrie, Oshawa – but the many in between stops on the network itself, and in the many blank spaces between the green lines on the map.

That region includes Toronto, all of it, not just Union Station. GO’s long-standing antipathy for inside-416 ridership must end. This does not mean that trains would stop at every crossing, but fares and service patterns discriminating against local riding simply waste the capacity of the network. One can hardly blame folks from the outer 416 for wanting subways to downtown if GO’s presence is little more than trains that don’t stop, or high fares for limited capacity if they do.

A major challenge for RER will be to design not just for a 15-minute headway out at, say, Oakville, but to have enough capacity so that Port Credit, Long Branch and Mimico don’t become the equivalent of Eglinton on the overloaded Yonge subway.

So, forgive me, but your comments here are completely BS and without any foundation. There are ample reasons to oppose SmartTrack's poorly-thought-out financing scheme or its bizarre station placement. What's more, the use of heavy rail RER doesn't necessarily allow for it to be a solution for the local issues in Liberty Village. Around there, we'd be better off getting rid of all street parking on King and potentially even expelling cars from a dedicated streetcar ROW. But then we'd have to deal with the Rob Ford's of this world who think it's their God-given write to drive their Escalade down King at 8:45 in the morning. (Well, maybe not Rob Ford per se, as he wasn't about to show up to work that early.)
 
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I have never said that Munro was against suburban rail. He's for suburban rail.

But he's against Tory's Smart Track proposal. And more to the point, he believes that the DRL should be a higher priority than any suburban rail service.

You don't put people on the team who would fundamentally disagree with your vision and have publicly argued against it.

I also don't think Munro would want the job. It's far easier to be a critic than to actually be in a position of power and make decisions balancing competing interests.
 
I'm also against the SmartTrack proposal. So what?

I don't know that Munro has ever expressed that one should be a "higher" priority than the other. He does, however, continually mention the pesky issue of how to pay for all of this. At one time, Tory was all for "revenue tools" of one sort or another. Now all he has is TIF. And that won't be enough.

Munro would not want any position - something he has expressed repeatedly - because he considers it more productive and useful to provide a third-party critique disinterested to institutional inertia or, for the most part, direct partisanship. Suggesting that it is simply "easier" to remain a critic does a disservice to someone who never presents anything less than a detailed, cogent argument, whatever its contents. If half of our political leaders took positions with half of Munro's typically detailed evidence and discussion, then we'd still be much better off than we are now.
 
. If half of our political leaders took positions with half of Munro's typically detailed evidence and discussion, then we'd still be much better off than we are now.

Well, perhaps that is why we need him in a position of action instead of reaction.
 
While Steve does tend to focus on transit issues which are relatively non-ideological, he is (or was, prior to the last election) a provincial NDP supporter. He has written in the past on his skepticism about contracting out services and PPPs, so it's not surprising that he started off from a position of relative hostility towards Tory's campaign. I got the feeling that he was looking to poke holes in Tory's platform - certainly easy given all of the flaws with Smart Track - and likely would have endorsed Chow no matter what.
 
Though I was a Chow supporter, I happened to think that SmartTrack was a good move both in terms of politics and policy. That said, the problems that Munro brings up are real and cannot be ignored. Whether or not he's an NDP supporter or a hardcore libertarian, he is extremely knowledgeable about transit and his analysis is always enlightening whether or not you agree with his final prescription.
 

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