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2014 Municipal Election: Toronto Mayoral Race

The reason the TTC is in a complete different universe than 905 transit, is solely due to the fact that the City of Toronto is only concerned with public transit within its borders (jurisdiction). That's what municipal governments exist for and it is inappropriate for them to waste time on anything outside of their jurisdiction. That's what Provincial or regional governments are for. Someone should mention this to Tory.

Yes, I understand that but you're missing the macro point. That's not the "sole reason," TTC is in a different universe; history is the reason and shifting lines on a map are the reason. The entire reason Metro existed was so people couldn't say basically what you just said. "The City of Toronto is only concerned with public transit within its borders..." and, therefore, it's not their problem how people in North York or Scarborough get around. There was an understanding that a REGIONAL government was needed because those municipalities were directly connected to Toronto. Someone living downtown in 1950 would surely have the same feelings about remote Steeles Avenue that you now espouse in regards to the 905. But there was an understanding that managing growth in what is today the outer-416 had to be connected, literally and figuratively, to the core.

The problem with amalgamation wasn't that it merged those governments but that it did so in a half-assed way and ignored advice on how to re-create that pre-existing regional structure on a larger scale. Which is to say that if you can use your imagination and get rid of the lines where they are now and include (for example) Mississauga, Markham, Vaughan, Richmond Hill etc., you would see that OBVIOUSLY a single transit system should be serving that geographical area because people are traveling back and forth between all these points every day. Obviously you're right and such a regional government does not exist (though Metrolinx could, in time, serve that function to an extent) but that's what my entire point is, and you say it in a way: The TTC doesn't care about RIDERS who may or may not start their trips within its borders; they only care about the vehicles, effectively. And that's counterproductive in 2014, no matter how much you can justify it by telling me it's not their job to worry about this other stuff.

I won't go further off-thread into a broad discussion of governance but hopefully you get my point. "Wasting time on something outside their jurisdiction" is obviously a bit subjective. Having a mayor who understands that Toronto the most important of several inter-connected municipalities is a quality to be admired, not criticized, no matter where here the limit of his influence ends. I don't expect him (or her) to champion transit in Mississauga but understanding that a Toronto transit system could go a stop or two beyond 416 is a recognition of the new reality that some people are content to ignore.
 
Yes, I understand that but you're missing the macro point.

Ah...but I do, as the "macro" point is just larger than you think it is. These arbitrary lines you speak of aren't arbitrary at all. The TTC as it exists would not be that way without city planning that supports it. The 905 deliberately chose to ignore transit oriented city planning and infrastructure, and now they are paying the price for it. And it can't really be fixed, short of bulldozing the entire place, as the built form can never support the kind of cost efficient transit as Toronto does.

It is in their best interest to hitch their wagon to the TTC, but it would not be in Toronto's best interest, as it would financially sink the TTC. This is why it is imperative to keep the TTC separate. I understand the problem, but the solution you suggest makes transit worse in Toronto, as we would have to subsidize 905 inefficiencies.
 
Ah...but I do, as the "macro" point is just larger than you think it is. These arbitrary lines you speak of aren't arbitrary at all. The TTC as it exists would not be that way without city planning that supports it. The 905 deliberately chose to ignore transit oriented city planning and infrastructure, and now they are paying the price for it. And it can't really be fixed, short of bulldozing the entire place, as the built form can never support the kind of cost efficient transit as Toronto does.

But you're confusing cause and effect. Metro didn't create itself; the province did that. It did so in recognition of a specific need, to coordinate infrastructure and growth.
And modern Toronto didn't create itself; the province did that too.
Toronto, as you think of it, only exists because someone created it.

You're used to the TTC going to Scarborough because you accept that it's part of "Toronto"; in 1950 it wasn't.
If Kathleen Wynne amalgamated Toronto with the 905 tomorrow, there would be outcry today but 50 years from now you'd have no problem with the TTC going up to Richmond Hill because you'd accept that it's "Toronto."

Of course you're right that the 905 didn't pursue transit-oriented development the way Metro did but you're just shooting the whole region in the foot if you don't realize that the worse the problems get there, the more it trickles down to the 416. You need to re-imagine what you think "Toronto" is and I think Tory is doing that. I certainly think Chow is capable of that as well, but she didn't do it on the campaign. And I understand that to the extent it's a TORONTO campaign but I still applaud even a smidgen of regional thinking.

And it most certainly CAN be fixed but not if your attitude is, "We built our own transit. If you don't have any, that's YOUR problem." That's why Metrolinx exists and you're making a fine case for why TTC needs to be uploaded. Metro worked wonders from the 50s to the 70s but now it's one region that has long since outgrown its governance model. No one wants to financially sink the TTC; what I'm talking about is leveraging the TTC and building upon it. To fail to do so will be to damn the entire region to a future of literal gridlock and ultimately economic collapse under its own weight.

In my opinion.
 
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But you're confusing cause and effect. Metro didn't create itself; the province did that. It did so in recognition of a specific need, to coordinate infrastructure and growth.
And modern Toronto didn't create itself; the province did that too.
Toronto, as you think of it, only exists because someone created it.

You're the one who's confused. The basic municipal structure was created, but it's how it was implemented (planning) that was up to the municipality, not the province. And as usual, the proof is in the pudding.



And it most certainly CAN be fixed.

That depends on your definition of "fixed".

It can never be as cost efficient as the TTC. It isn't even cost efficient for bus routes, let alone higher order transit. Letting the province deal with regional commuter travel is fine, as it has been, but it has nothing to do with inner-city mass transit, which is my concern as a Toronto tax payer, and it should be the concern of the mayor of Toronto.

You wanna apply for a different job Mr Tory...go apply (oh, he already did and lost...ooops)
 
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You're the one who's confused. The basic municipal structure was created, but it's how it was implemented (planning) that was up to the municipality, not the province. And as usual, the proof is in the pudding.

Sigh. I think not.
The province sets the legal framework, even if the planning decisions are (obviously) up to the local municipalities.
The reason Metro was created was to use the $ generated by the existing core to bind together infrastructure in the then-undeveloped suburbs. It worked.
They created the suburban regions with the same idea, except they didn't have developed cores to leverage, so you got sprawl. It's fair to "blame" 905 municipalities for creating their own sprawl but they were essentially financially incapable of doing anything else.

Still, my larger point is that the mayor of Toronto (in my opinion) should be a leader for the whole region, on a symbolic level. Rob Ford didn't get this, which is why he regarded something like FCM as "gravy." I see things differently, and the entire purpose of CivicAction is to frame things differently.


That depends on your definition of "fixed".

It can never be as cost efficient as the TTC. It isn't even cost efficient for bus routes, let alone higher order transit. Letting the province deal with regional commuter travel is fine, as it has been, but it has nothing to do with inner-city mass transit, which is my concern as a Toronto tax payer, and it should be the concern of the mayor of Toronto.

Wow, NEVER is a long time but I don't know you and it's entirely possible you're psychic.
I doubt you (unless you're psychic) could have guessed what Markham would look like today 20 years ago or 40 years ago or 100 years ago but you know that it will never (in bold!) be able so support a system as cost-efficient as the TTC? NEVER! I wonder what people said about a subway up to the farms around Yonge/Finch 50 years ago? (I don't really wonder; I'm being sarcastic there.) Crikey, why even build one along Sheppard? It's not like more than 10,000 people are living there now, specifically because the subway brought intensification!
By all means, focus on your self-defined "inner-city transit," as if it's the only relevant issue to you, the Toronto Taxpayer. Don't worry about how it connects to anything else or who it actually serves. If nothing else, Rob Ford will agree with you.

Think small, be small.
The people who created and ran Metro didn't, and that's why it was regarded for decades as a model. Today people are looking at Markham (and maybe even Mississauga) as model suburbs trying to urbanize. But if you want to treat them as lost causes; distant, un-saveable islands that have nothing to do with Toronto, you can do that and see where you end up a generation or two from now.

You wanna apply for a different job Mr Tory...go apply (oh, he already did and lost...ooops)

Oh, snap! I'm sure that'll be keeping him awake all night Monday. No - that will be the champagne and non-stop partying, actually.
(I don't say that to be snippy or because it's my desired outcome; I just also have bit of psychic in me.)
 
Everyone: With the Toronto Mayor Election just two days away I feel that this thread should be the place
in which all of Toronto's election returns and other related news reports should be posted...

I was going to create another topic thread concerning Monday's 10/27 Election returns ONLY but noting the active
thread this should be the place to look for information about the election from any and all news and media sources...
I was going to do this so this information can be easily found and read but this topic should cover this subject...

I will add that this Toronto election should have a possibly record high turnout and there should be no shortage of
media coverage here - I am looking forward to seeing how this plays out and the outcome...

LI MIKE
 
Sigh. I think not.
The province sets the legal framework, even if the planning decisions are (obviously) up to the local municipalities.

Yea, well since it's the planning decisions that make the difference, why are you pretending it's a minor point? You're either just tap-dancing your way out of the corner you've painted yourself into. or yes...you are indeed confused.



They created the suburban regions with the same idea

No...the former Metro and the 905 Regions are NOT the same thing.





It's fair to "blame" 905 municipalities for creating their own sprawl but they were essentially financially incapable of doing anything else.

Wrong again...Mississauga deliberately chose poor urban planning, taxation and budget policies when they didn't have to. And they kept electing the same mayor since 1978 who kept making the same mistakes. Mississauga and Hazel are the forerunner to Ford Nation.




Still, my larger point is that the mayor of Toronto (in my opinion) should be a leader for the whole region, on a symbolic level.

I hope the mayor of Toronto sets a great example...for anywhere. But the job description is what it is, and there's a reason it is what it is. And what you suggest is actually detrimental for the city.


Wow, NEVER is a long time but I don't know you and it's entirely possible you're psychic.

Of course it's never, and one doesn't need to be psychic to be confident about that. Mississauga is built out and the damage is done. I did say that you'd need to bulldoze all of Mississauga and start from scratch, and I suppose that could happen, but what odds do you give it will?

This isn't a case of thinking small vs thinking big....it's just a case of thinking....period. The 905 problems need to be addressed, and as Ontarians, it's a sh*t sandwich we all have to take a bite out of...at the provincial level. I just don't advocate sacrificing Toronto to the cause.
 
It's fair to "blame" 905 municipalities for creating their own sprawl but they were essentially financially incapable of doing anything else.

How so? They certainly have enjoyed the revenue from development charges, but what prevented them from developing in a more compact form based on the old downtowns of Richmond Hill, Unionville, Streetsville, etc.?

I doubt you (unless you're psychic) could have guessed what Markham would look like today 20 years ago or 40 years ago or 100 years ago but you know that it will never (in bold!) be able so support a system as cost-efficient as the TTC? NEVER! I wonder what people said about a subway up to the farms around Yonge/Finch 50 years ago? (I don't really wonder; I'm being sarcastic there.) Crikey, why even build one along Sheppard? It's not like more than 10,000 people are living there now, specifically because the subway brought intensification!

I remember what Markham looked like 20 years ago - much like it is today, only without the condos on Hwy 7, and without as much of the traffic on said Hwy 7. Of course, YRT is already improving local transit by building a busway (roughed in for LRT) right down Hwy 7. And it takes some of those sacred traffic lanes that *both* Doug Ford and John Tory have criticized in various contexts (see Tory's Eglinton Connects "clarifications").

As for Yonge and Finch, that particular extension didn't come about until the mid-70s when the entire area was already developed. Sure, there were still farms in Thornhill, but most of North York had been developed in a low-density fashion 10-20 years earlier. Not many if any farms there in 1964. Towne and Countrye Square opened in the 50s at Steeles and Yonge. Even with Finch built by 1974 it still took over 20 years for high-density residential development to appear. Most of those condos weren't there in the 80s or let alone the mid-90s.

And, indeed, why build a subway along Sheppard? A handful of condos beside Bayview Village and Ikea aren't exactly strong examples of transit-oriented development. The area is still extremely car-oriented and, you can be sure, that's how people in Willowdale still get around. Condos have been built all over the city in a seemingly unending boom now for over a decade. It's occurred just as much next to the 401 as it has along Hwy 7 or next to the Promenade (though those are mostly older). I'm sure the subway is a selling point for developers on Sheppard (albeit only at Bayview, Bessarion, or Leslie; Don Mills already had a lot of high-rises), but you are incorrectly attributing such development to the presence of a subway station. If you want to see how subways do NOT necessarily lead to density, I invite you to glance outside at Yorkdale station.

The people who created and ran Metro didn't, and that's why it was regarded for decades as a model. Today people are looking at Markham (and maybe even Mississauga) as model suburbs trying to urbanize. But if you want to treat them as lost causes; distant, un-saveable islands that have nothing to do with Toronto, you can do that and see where you end up a generation or two from now.

Both York Region and Missassauga are pursuing BRT and/or LRT projects to assist with that development. I don't think either Markham or Mississauga need "saving". However, it would be more helpful if there existed a coordinating transit body that included representatives from both of the province and GTA municipalities. Before 2009, that was Metrolinx. Now it is an essentially unaccountable agency that doesn't do much more than take its cue from the province. If the Mayor of Toronto had a formal leadership role in regional transit decisions, there might be more to be said for advocating regional transportation approaches. Tory should certainly advocate for just that. I'm not sure where he has.

Yes, GO RER is an excellent and long overdue idea. It's not Tory's though, and his transportation plan on his own website fails to mention streetcars or buses (apart from nebulous "express" buses). He only mentions LRT in his ridiculous Eglinton Connects "policy". Where's the Sheppard and Finch LRTs? What does he plan there?

We may have to agree to disagree here, but the bottom line is quite straightforward.

1) Tory has taken contradictory positions on the DRL. He does not list it amongst his top 2 priorities.
2) SmartTrack does not in any way replace the DRL.
3) SmartTrack is largely made redundant by GO RER and may be unworkable as a plan given stated intended capacity, headways, and routing.
4) Tory has failed to make any definitive, clear commitments to the Sheppard East and Finch West LRTs.
5) Tory has explicitly opposed very reasonable service improvement proposals by the TTC on the basis that they are not funded, even though his own centrepiece plan is also completely unfunded and will likely be unworkable with TIF.
6) Tory has rightly criticized Doug Ford for cuts to TTC service made under Ford and Stintz as TTC chair. He has, however, made no commitments to restore these service cuts.
7) Tory supports an expensive Scarborough subway extension that is the product of another master flip-flopper, namely Karen Stintz. The cost of constructing and operating this extension will be directly borne by Toronto property taxpayers, along with any cancellation costs accruing from replacing the previously fully funded and "shovel ready" (not to mention fully grade-separated) LRT. That's a billion dollars so that people can avoid a brief transfer at Kennedy.

So, overall, sure, it's great to talk about regional transit solutions. It's not, however, acceptable to have such a weak platform on local transit, or to support the fundamental misallocation of resources represented by the BD extension. As near as I can tell, Tory's local transit policy involves nothing else but pandering to (some) Scarborough voters (*Forum* polls have shown that the LRT is actually slightly preferred even on the false premise that it costs the same as the subway!) and to drivers who don't want "congestion" on Eglinton. Must not be enough for them to eliminate the bus lanes.
 
“There are very much open questions about whether [TIF] would cover the amount of money needed,†says transit expert and University of Toronto engineering professor Eric Miller, whom Tory has frequently cited as an advocate of his plan. “While I’ve spoken quite supportively of [SmartTrack] as a transportation concept, the big issue will be funding.†Miller suggests Toronto may end up paying increased property taxes down the line, or looking elsewhere in Tory’s plan to fill the financial holes TIF could create. “SmartTrack may lead us to revisit whether the Scarborough subway extension really does make sense or whether the LRT might be better to do. That frees up a billion dollars or more that might make up the shortfall.â€

http://www.torontolife.com/informer...ry-elected-will-really-able-build-smarttrack/
 
Yea, well since it's the planning decisions that make the difference, why are you pretending it's a minor point? You're either just tap-dancing your way out of the corner you've painted yourself into. or yes...you are indeed confused.

Because planning decisions don't take place in a vacuum. Planning decisions in Metro were in the context of a regional government and regional infrastructure co-ordination. Seems about as un-confusing as it can be. York Region didn't even amalgamate its transit services into 2000. There are reasons that every community is the way it is and the legislation that governed the creation of Metro and then the 905 regions can't be ignored when you talk about planning decisions. It's not passing the buck, it's explaining the circumstances.


No...the former Metro and the 905 Regions are NOT the same thing.

In the interests of brevity I'll just say this is wrong. They were set up to be two-tier municipalities and replicate the system in place in Metro. It didn't work for previously discussed reasons.



Wrong again...Mississauga deliberately chose poor urban planning, taxation and budget policies when they didn't have to. And they kept electing the same mayor since 1978 who kept making the same mistakes. Mississauga and Hazel are the forerunner to Ford Nation.

I'm not going to get into the specific circumstances of Mississauga here, though I don't particularly disagree....aside from the Ford Nation thing. Hazel got wise. Too little, too late but she did.

Of course it's never, and one doesn't need to be psychic to be confident about that. Mississauga is built out and the damage is done. I did say that you'd need to bulldoze all of Mississauga and start from scratch, and I suppose that could happen, but what odds do you give it will?

It doesn't have to be entirely done from scratch. They can develop Lakeview properly, they can fix the "downtown" area and create other pockets of urbanization that, while not erasing what's there, will make it a very different place than it was. North York is pretty built out but North York Centre looks nothing like it did a decade ago so we'll agree to disagree on the hypothetical future of suburban intensification.



I remember what Markham looked like 20 years ago - much like it is today, only without the condos on Hwy 7, and without as much of the traffic on said Hwy 7.

Parts of it are the same, parts of it are entirely different. There was a Chinese mall 20 years ago? There was a BRT? There was a New Urbanist development? There was a downtown and a university? These are fundamental changes you brush off as a few condos.


Of course, YRT is already improving local transit by building a busway (roughed in for LRT) right down Hwy 7. And it takes some of those sacred traffic lanes that *both* Doug Ford and John Tory have criticized in various contexts (see Tory's Eglinton Connects "clarifications").
Actually - they widened the road so no lanes lost.

A handful of condos beside Bayview Village and Ikea aren't exactly strong examples of transit-oriented development. The area is still extremely car-oriented and, you can be sure, that's how people in Willowdale still get around. Condos have been built all over the city in a seemingly unending boom now for over a decade. ... If you want to see how subways do NOT necessarily lead to density, I invite you to glance outside at Yorkdale station.

Going into a whole subway/density thing is really going off the rails. I can tell you're no dummy so I think we both know why there is no intensification at Yorkdale (or along the Spadina line in general) compared to Yonge or even Sheppard. Sheppard isn't a trench highway and there is no way that level of development would be there without a subway.

Again with the handful of condos? If those people weren't living along Sheppard where would they be? Probably up in Aurora with a couple of cars. Clearly Sheppard isn't perfect but it is doing what it's supposed to.

Both York Region and Missassauga are pursuing BRT and/or LRT projects to assist with that development. I don't think either Markham or Mississauga need "saving". However, it would be more helpful if there existed a coordinating transit body that included representatives from both of the province and GTA municipalities. Before 2009, that was Metrolinx. Now it is an essentially unaccountable agency that doesn't do much more than take its cue from the province. If the Mayor of Toronto had a formal leadership role in regional transit decisions, there might be more to be said for advocating regional transportation approaches. Tory should certainly advocate for just that. I'm not sure where he has.

Totally agree. I think he's advocated for it in general terms before, but not as a candidate.
I won't go point by point through the rest of it; but I never said I don't have concerns about Tory's transit plan. Maybe I'm just an optimist - when it comes to suburbs getting better or Tory doing the right thing once he's handed the keys.
 
Parts of it are the same, parts of it are entirely different. There was a Chinese mall 20 years ago? There was a BRT? There was a New Urbanist development? There was a downtown and a university? These are fundamental changes you brush off as a few condos.

Calling it a "downtown" is still something of a stretch. Markham could have pursued centralization and development intensification 20 years ago and didn't. It's notable that plans for significant employment in the "downtowns" of both North York and Scarborough still have yet to materialize.

As for Pacific Mall, it's true that it's been around "only" for 17 years rather than 20. Most of Markham is still comprised to single family detached housing in a typical low-density suburban pattern.

Going into a whole subway/density thing is really going off the rails. I can tell you're no dummy so I think we both know why there is no intensification at Yorkdale (or along the Spadina line in general) compared to Yonge or even Sheppard. Sheppard isn't a trench highway and there is no way that level of development would be there without a subway.

There is no intensification at Yorkdale because the subway station is surrounded by single-family detached housing. The Lawrence Heights redevelopment will change this completely, but it's the kind of change that should have been initiated years ago. Of course, there are many more examples of limited development near subway stations, as can be seen all along the Bloor-Danforth line (I can't get used to this "Line 1" or "Line 2" business) and YUS stations like Eglinton West, Lawrence, and Glencairn, among others.

Again with the handful of condos? If those people weren't living along Sheppard where would they be? Probably up in Aurora with a couple of cars. Clearly Sheppard isn't perfect but it is doing what it's supposed to.

Or they'd be living in condos in Thornhill along Bathurst or almost anywhere else.

Totally agree. I think he's advocated for it in general terms before, but not as a candidate.
I won't go point by point through the rest of it; but I never said I don't have concerns about Tory's transit plan. Maybe I'm just an optimist - when it comes to suburbs getting better or Tory doing the right thing once he's handed the keys.

Well, I wouldn't say I'm a pessimist, as I always hope for the best. Experience, however, has taught me to expect the worst (Doug Ford aside).
 

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