Ïce Condos (Lanterra Developments, Cadillac Fairview) - Real Estate -

They haven't started selling them publicly yet. They only sold them to VIP brokers. Today is the regular brokers going in. The prices have gone up. From what my agent said after 1st release, 2nd release prices already went up. Now it's up some more again. Can't imagine how the public can afford it once it becomes public.

Judging from the prices of the recent condo releases, they are around $550+/sq ft. Cheapest seems to be Infinity so far. Their VIP prices are starting from low of $416/sq ft. But I guess they can't beat against those nice fancy towers.
 
AKS said:
They haven't started selling them publicly yet. They only sold them to VIP brokers. Today is the regular brokers going in. The prices have gone up. From what my agent said after 1st release, 2nd release prices already went up. Now it's up some more again. Can't imagine how the public can afford it once it becomes public.

Judging from the prices of the recent condo releases, they are around $550+/sq ft. Cheapest seems to be Infinity so far. Their VIP prices are starting from low of $416/sq ft. But I guess they can't beat against those nice fancy towers.
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Who ever thought 416 / sq ft would look cheap. With more and more future projects going for close to 600.00 sq ft. one has to wonder about the value of their future investment. When all these new buildings come on line in 3-4 years what will values be going for then I wonder.:confused:
 
That would depend how many immigrants/investors move into Toronto. They're building quite a lot of office buildings in the area so I suspect Toronto won't suffer too much downturn even if it does occur. Office rental space availability is low right now. With more offices opening later, there will be more people moving in to occupy those office buildings and maybe more jobs available. But who knows what the future holds. We might all get hit by a meteor even.
 
AKS said:
That would depend how many immigrants/investors move into Toronto. They're building quite a lot of office buildings in the area so I suspect Toronto won't suffer too much downturn even if it does occur. Office rental space availability is low right now. With more offices opening later, there will be more people moving in to occupy those office buildings and maybe more jobs available. But who knows what the future holds. We might all get hit by a meteor even.
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Ooh! Imagine what a condo with a crater view would go for!:D
 
I wondering how much it went up though... Someone told me that the prices seems to be levelling off. I know when Ice opened up it was already about $555/sf. And that was VIP broker pricing.

I know that with similar priced units such as Aura Condos, the prices has gone up with the sales office by around 10-15%. But trying to sell them for the same price is proving difficult. I talked to a guy who is trying to unload his 3 units for basically what he paid plus his costs and is having a problem doing so as we were interested in buying. The regular people are simply priced out of reach. Most of the people buying the new condos are investors it seems these days but the days of flipping for profit is starting to disappear with shrinking profit margins. If anyone has the new pricing, let us know so we can compare the increase. Thanks!
 
tell that to those people buying 300 front street. Starting price 575/sq ft 7th floor. Even on lower floors some cost over $600/sq ft. Imagine how much it costs once you stack up to the top floors. Ice is actually cheaper compared to Tridel
 
That's the whole point... Prices will be topping off and flat lining soon as the only people buying are investors. Once the buildings are all up, the investors will be trying to unload them. Because they are so expensive, the end user will not be buying. And the price was so expensive that they cannot recoup their carrying costs in rent. I'm not saying the market is going to crash like some people, but that they are starting to flat line. Remember when they sell condos today, they price it to what they think will be market value when the condo opens up in 3-5 years, not today's prices.
 
jackiechandc said:
That's the whole point... Prices will be topping off and flat lining soon as the only people buying are investors. Once the buildings are all up, the investors will be trying to unload them. Because they are so expensive, the end user will not be buying. And the price was so expensive that they cannot recoup their carrying costs in rent. I'm not saying the market is going to crash like some people, but that they are starting to flat line. Remember when they sell condos today, they price it to what they think will be market value when the condo opens up in 3-5 years, not today's prices.
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I'm pretty sure that's not how most builders price their units.
 
jackiechandc said:
That's the whole point... Prices will be topping off and flat lining soon as the only people buying are investors. Once the buildings are all up, the investors will be trying to unload them. Because they are so expensive, the end user will not be buying. And the price was so expensive that they cannot recoup their carrying costs in rent. I'm not saying the market is going to crash like some people, but that they are starting to flat line. Remember when they sell condos today, they price it to what they think will be market value when the condo opens up in 3-5 years, not today's prices.
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Hmm... so I guess the general consensus is that this isn't a good project to be buying into? I just got an email tonight from an agent about this building and I thought that I might be interested, but the prices do seem crazy high. I guess I'll just sit tight for now...
 
I'm not saying it's a bad condo project to buy at all. In fact it's one of the better ones to get as the location is fantastic and the builder (HR homes) and developer (Lanterra) have a great track record. I'm just saying that people who expect to flip any properties now will be in a for a surprise when it comes down to recoup your costs especially after real estate commissions, etc..
There was a report in today's Toronto Star echoing this concern :

http://yourhome.ca/homes/article/476576

Bottom line is you are going to buy to live, any time is a good time. Ice is a good long term investment, but if you are planning to flip it, don't expect a huge increase as it has been the last several years.

By the way, anyone has the list of the new prices?
 
I don't think anyone has the list of prices except agents at ice? I saw the list but I didn't take a camera with me :p There wasn't a significant increase for the prices but there's no $3000 cash back anymore. I think there's still $2000 in upgrades and assignment fee is $0 but worth $2500 in savings. They dropped price of assignment fee.
 
jackiechandc said:
I'm not saying it's a bad condo project to buy at all. In fact it's one of the better ones to get as the location is fantastic and the builder (HR homes) and developer (Lanterra) have a great track record. I'm just saying that people who expect to flip any properties now will be in a for a surprise when it comes down to recoup your costs especially after real estate commissions, etc..
There was a report in today's Toronto Star echoing this concern :

http://yourhome.ca/homes/article/476576

Bottom line is you are going to buy to live, any time is a good time. Ice is a good long term investment, but if you are planning to flip it, don't expect a huge increase as it has been the last several years.

By the way, anyone has the list of the new prices?
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Hey, thanks for the reply. I know what you mean... I don't think anyone will be making a quick buck off these condos for a while to come. Although I am looking to live in the condo, when you are spending that much money, it's always an investment imo. Anyways, I have no clue how much they went for before, but this is the price list the agent sent me for a few of the units... I hope it copies and pastes well.

Visby 4206 1 br + study 522 W $335,900
Asker 4509 1 br + den 590 N $397,900
Drammen 4503 1 br + den 616 S $414,900
Drammen 4603 1 br + den 616 S $415,900
Copenhagen 4607 2 br + study 751 NW $482,900
Helsinki 4602 2 br 791 SE $501,900
Gothenburg 4604 3 br + den 1091 SW $648,900

I'm thinking I may just hold out because there seems to be better value in the resale market, and also because I'm not so crazy about the thought of paying 400k+ for 600 sq.ft. I currently own a 600sq.ft condo on the water anyways, so this wouldn't be much of a step up.
 
Licious,
Thanks for the info... based on that here is a comparision from the VIP Broker Price to the current price. Please note I accounted for the $1000/floor price adjustment from the ones you gave me (Sorry, can't get the numbers to line up:)


UNIT ORIGINAL CURRENT INCREASE % INCREASE

VISBY $287,900 $296,900 $9,000 3.13%
ASKER $327,900 $355,900 $28,900 8.54%
DRAMMEN $344,900 $372,900 $28,900 8.12%
COPENHAGEN$417,900 $439,900 $22,000 5.26%
VISBY $435,900 $459,900 $24,000 5.51%
VISBY $584,900 $605,900 $21,000 3.59%

There hasn't been a big increase at all. In the past, each phase release for new condos would have increased at least 10%. It really seems like the prices are starting to flat line with respect to the big constructions.
I actually put an offer down for the Asker unit at the VIP broker sale, but came to my sense when I realized that I would be paying $335K for a 590sf unit that goes for a 1 plus den!
Resale offers so much more, but then again, your maitenance fees are so high and you wouldn't be getting the same amenities are the new builds.
 
jackiechandc said:
came to my sense when I realized that I would be paying $335K for a 590sf unit that goes for a 1 plus den!
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Well, unless the market drops, I doubt you would be buying anything cheaper in the harbourfront core. I had an agent send me prices for around the area and ask for 1+1 South view and they were around $275k+ cheaper being they're older buildings. Waterclub and Riviera are around 300k+. The only upside really to buying ice is if you want a different view or moving to a new condo. I find sometimes staying at a condo too long (10 years+) might end up getting old and depreciate. Also maintenance fees go up. The possible plus side is the prices goes up. If not, you'll be paying the same price for what was bought few years ago after they're built. (if prices remain flat within the next 6 years). Anyhow I doubt it would get any cheaper than the price paid since the buyer would lose money from their purchase. Or you get lucky from foreclosure (when the buyers can't pay for it and must sell for a loss) I really doubt that would happen but one never knows.

oh btw, it's hard to account for the $1000 price increases. I notice at certain levels there's a price jump before resuming increases of $1000/level.
 
AKS said:
Well, unless the market drops, I doubt you would be buying anything cheaper in the harbourfront core. I had an agent send me prices for around the area and ask for 1+1 South view and they were around $275k+ cheaper being they're older buildings. Waterclub and Riviera are around 300k+. The only upside really to buying ice is if you want a different view or moving to a new condo. I find sometimes staying at a condo too long (10 years+) might end up getting old and depreciate. Also maintenance fees go up. The possible plus side is the prices goes up. If not, you'll be paying the same price for what was bought few years ago after they're built. (if prices remain flat within the next 6 years). Anyhow I doubt it would get any cheaper than the price paid since the buyer would lose money from their purchase. Or you get lucky from foreclosure (when the buyers can't pay for it and must sell for a loss) I really doubt that would happen but one never knows.

oh btw, it's hard to account for the $1000 price increases. I notice at certain levels there's a price jump before resuming increases of $1000/level.
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I agree that prices aren't much cheaper for new builds, but the size of the units are much smaller, even compared to condos built less then 5 years ago. You also have to understand that the units for Ice that are south facing are the bigger units that costs about $400-$500K not the smaller ones.

Generally you are correct that the older the unit especially the ones 10+years, the price sometimes start to depreciate once the maintenances gets to ridiculous rates. There are definite advantages/disadvantages for buying either new or resale.

I think the main people that will be surprised are the investors that bought it to flip in a couple of years. They are the ones that are going to be feeling the condo correction if it occurs, not the end user, who are more interested in living in the area. I bought a unit at Bay and College (Murano), but paid a low enough price ($380/sf) to rent it out and recoup my costs if I can't sell it. With the current condo prices of $500-$600/sf it is impossible to have a positive cash flow if you can't sell and have to become a landlord to rent it out.

I think a great opprotunity will be coming in the next couple of years when investors who bought to flip will try to unload their units before the final closing payment is due. They'll be wanting to at least breakeven on the deal. This way you'll be able to buy units below market value and not have to tie up huge amounts of money for 4-5 years which could have been used elsewhere. JMHO.
 
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